Author Topic: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?  (Read 44497 times)

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Offline scottly

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #150 on: January 18, 2011, 09:46:44 pm »
So, will someone please make a fork brace for us folks that only have the stock option?  
We have the technology, between Frank, myself, and I'm sure others on the forums. Do you want a brace that bolts to the caliper mounts on the fork legs, or one that clamps to the top of the legs, like the one I adapted to my K7?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 09:56:59 pm by scottly »
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #151 on: January 18, 2011, 10:05:42 pm »
Its fairly easy mate, if you have a reasonably well set up bike that you are willing to ride hard, then try it with and without the front fender, just watch undulations on the road when braking into a corner, and don't hurt yourself mate.... ;)
Mick
I was thinking more about a test using dial indicators and a spring scale, to measure deflection with force. I've been through one very scary tank-slapper before, and don't care to risk another, in the name of science! :D

I hear you mate. Try the wheel between the knee's one, not very scientific but you can feel the difference.... ;)

Would you be able to make triple clamps Scottly..?

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Offline scottly

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #152 on: January 18, 2011, 10:20:34 pm »
Would you be able to make triple clamps Scottly..?

Mick
Maybe, but it would be difficult, at least for me, with the manual machines I currently have. I do have a line on a modern CNC machining center, as I have been working on the repair of a CNC lathe in the same shop. In any case, making the first part is the hardest and most expensive.
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Offline BrianAdair

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #153 on: January 18, 2011, 10:41:53 pm »
Dang........!!!!!!! :o

7 pages.... who needs, a fender, or a brace, hell why even have 2 fork tubes....? Just run one tube, and use zip ties and duct tape it will all be good... lmao ;D


All joking aside, I read all of this thread, and there is some good info here, I see the point of it.
I mean it's kind of common sense,  I wasn't sure if I wanted a front fender or not and really don't think I do, but was worried about the forks being weak to hard corning and riding, so was looking at building or buying a brace.

Offline 754

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #154 on: January 18, 2011, 10:59:21 pm »
I saw a stiff front end yesterday.

 Upside down legs, White power I believe.
 2 1/2 inch thick lower tree, top about 1 1/2... one-offs
 Speed sensing steering damper...red anodized
 Clip-ons with 8 degrees downturn.
 I will shorten the forks about 3 inches for that setup.

 It will probably hit around 180mph or better with v2win power!
 The guy figures between 170-190 hp.. got them cool looking semi downdraft Keihins on it.. FCRs I think.. on radically raised port heads.... should be a screamer...
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Offline Anti-Johnny

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #155 on: January 18, 2011, 11:09:48 pm »
now that I have the willies spooked out of me, what are the good and economical options for a fork brace.

I dont take corners at any speed and rarely am at highway speeds, but it cant hurt to add some safety features.
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Offline Really?

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #156 on: January 19, 2011, 05:17:36 am »
So, will someone please make a fork brace for us folks that only have the stock option?  
We have the technology, between Frank, myself, and I'm sure others on the forums. Do you want a brace that bolts to the caliper mounts on the fork legs, or one that clamps to the top of the legs, like the one I adapted to my K7?

Something like the Terrozi.  Functional, not bulky, looks good and I can still use the stock fender.  Hope that is not  too tall an order.

Johnny, I do not think we have an option other than having one custom made like MCRider or the stock one.  sliders are low compared to the later ones.
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

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Offline Free Booter

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #157 on: January 19, 2011, 06:59:31 am »
Damn! I asked one little question and a week later it explodes into 7 pages and the possibility of a custom part fabrication?!  LOL ;D

Offline Goofaroo

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #158 on: January 19, 2011, 07:12:09 am »
I try to watch this unravel from a safe distance but sometimes i feel like my head will explode if I don't throw my 2 cents worth in the fray.

Please accept this as my opinion and don't come after my family.

As some have stated, the 5lb weight test seems flawed. It is like taking a 12" section of 10lb test fishing line, holding it horizontily from one end, and saying "10lbs my ass, it can't even support it's own weight".

The "BRACE", and I will call it what it is, is obviously designed to be used as part of a system. On it's own, it is as useless as the proverbial "boar tits" but when bolted properly into the forks, engineering begins to come into effect and it is transformed into a very rigid and critical piece of the fork's design. The fact that Honda (and most other manufacturers) chose to use it as a place to mount the fender is irrelevant. Surely anyone can look at the fork with the brace mounted in position by four strategically positioned bolts and see how much rigidity it brings to the party.

The mod that we have revealed here is best described by Hondaman's post. If you have a later model with the rubber bushings, replace them with a more rigid material and you will realize an improvement in handling. This is not to say that the rubber mounted brace is ineffective but that it will increase it's effectiveness if the mod is performed. Aftermarket or custom braces can add further rigidity.  

Offline 754

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #159 on: January 19, 2011, 07:26:35 am »
But what OIL are you running.. ???

 I run thick oil so the front end stays down...
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Offline Goofaroo

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #160 on: January 19, 2011, 07:30:59 am »
Quote
Damn! I asked one little question and a week later it explodes into 7 pages and the possibility of a custom part fabrication?!  LOL

Well, look who's here!   ;)  You asked a perfectly reasonable question. I can only assume that you are considering purchasing a fender from Airtech. They are absolutely correct and if you will just foloow their instructions you are good to go. That's one nice thing about the original brace is that it makes a great place to mount a fender but I also think it looks "period cool" by itself if you choose to go fenderless.

Offline Nikkisixx

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #161 on: January 19, 2011, 08:05:26 am »
I was on my way to the garage to perform another test, when the futility of this occurred to me.  If you believe the fender bracket acts as a brace, you will not be convinced.  I might as well try to convince Kingscustoms that God does not exist.  The fender bracket as a brace is a fact A PRIORI.  Since I am a pragmatist, I chose to spend my time more wisely. 

SO. Here it is true believers! A universal fork brace.  Also, for believers that intend to take it to the edge, a universal steering dampener is included.



The Universal fork brace comes in various colors.  Here it is pictured in blue:




The steering dampener includes the damper (piece of old innertube) and mounting hardware (zip ties).

It is a proven fact that modifying a SOHC Honda in any way will bring on the apocalypse.

Offline 754

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #162 on: January 19, 2011, 08:25:21 am »
 Looks Good man...
 maybe get a bit more experience under your belt though, before you tackle building things like a swingarm.. or frame...


.. cant wait to see your IV bag oil tank!!
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Offline Joksa

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #163 on: January 19, 2011, 12:07:26 pm »
A universal fork brace.

It seems to work with fenderless springer and telescopic forks.



That mystery bRace is probably an ECLI.. at anyrate he made a complete fork incorporating that design.. looks very stiff.
 The drawback to fitting that to Honda forks, you have to machine them to fit that brace..



EGLI did have similar design.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #164 on: January 19, 2011, 12:27:33 pm »
I was on my way to the garage to perform another test, when the futility of this occurred to me.  If you believe the fender bracket acts as a brace, you will not be convinced. 

I understand your frustration.  There is often a lot more religion than science in these technical forums.

No offense meant.  But, measuring the brace deflection by itself, is like using a quote out of context.  The items around the brace form a unit so that the whole functions manifold better than any one single item.

For a great illustration of this, check out monocoque construction, where a bunch of independently flimsy pieces are assembled into a very rigid and strong structure.

You can't measure the speeds of all the individual items of a motorcycle on the work bench and then predict the maximum speed of the assembled parts.  A complete SOHC4 will do 90MPH.  Remove the main fuse and it will go only as fast as you push it.  So, is it just the fuse what causes the bike to achieve 90 MPH?   I wouldn't assume so.

I think we can all agree that it is best that the front wheel point in a fixed relative position to where the handle bars are placed.
Toward that end, keeping the front axle parallel to the bar position is a desirable goal while riding and especially when the front tire is placing lateral and uneven vertical loads on the front axle.

Without a brace tying the lower stanchions together, the tubes are allowed independent movement  Fore and aft and up a down.
The axle keeps the tube's lateral movement parallel, but the axle can still deflect left or right and worse, each side can deflect fore and aft independently when external forces are applied.

Now imagine the two tubes are held rigidly parallel, so that if there are fore and aft loads placed on one side of the axle, both tubes work against the deflection.  Isn't it obvious that unwanted misalignment of the front axle be reduced?

This is what the brace is for, strength in numbers,m tying the tubes together so they don't independently fight deflection forces trying to make the front axle change orientation to the handle bar position.

The brace should help keep the lower tubes parallel to each other, and it transfers load from one fork tube to the other.

Can you agree that it is easier to bend one tube than two tubes together, given the tubes are of equal construction?
In this way, the brace also benefits the upper tubes, as well.  During bumps and/or braking, the bending fulcrum is located at the lower triple tree mount.  As you know, the longer the arm, the easier it will be to deflect.  If more force is placed on the left side than the right, that side will deflect more.  Note that this translates to misalignment of the front axle (and front wheel) with the steering bar position.  The fork brace ties the two forks together at a lower fulcrum point and forces BOTH tubes to bend in unison at the lower triple rather than allow each to absorb loads and deflect independently.

If you want to do testing.  Hold two lower stanchions in your hands at the axle mounts.  Note how much (little) force it takes to move your hands out of axle alignment.
Now mount a fork brace onto the stanchions, and measure the force needed to deflect the axle mount positions, fore and aft and up a down.  Note that these applied forces are transferred to the opposite axle mount position.
Now mount an axle into the fork stanchions.  Measure the force vs deflection deflection at one axle point relative the other axle point fixed position.
Now remove the fork brace and repeat the above test.
These tests will quantify the benefit of a fork brace with regards to keeping the lower stanchions in rigid alignment to each other, and show how unit construction creates a stronger assembly of components.

Next test would be to assemble the lowers onto the uppers.  Apply force rearward to the left side axle and measure deflection, while holding the triple in rigid position.  Then install the fork brace and repeat the test.  Since the pressure is more evenly applied to both upper tubes via transfer through the fork brace, the deflection will be reduced given the same forces applied as in the above test.

Any of this help?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #165 on: January 19, 2011, 12:41:07 pm »
Quote
If you want to do testing.  Hold two lower stanchions in your hands at the axle mounts.  Note how much (little) force it takes to move your hands out of axle alignment.
Now mount a fork brace onto the stanchions, and measure the force needed to deflect the axle mount positions, fore and aft and up a down.  Note that these applied forces are transferred to the opposite axle mount position.
Now mount an axle into the fork stanchions.  Measure the force vs deflection deflection at one axle point relative the other axle point fixed position.
Now remove the fork brace and repeat the above test.
These tests will quantify the benefit of a fork brace with regards to keeping the lower stanchions in rigid alignment to each other, and show how unit construction creates a stronger assembly of components.
This is exactly how I was thinking of it. Useless to test one part by itself. It is the sum of the whole. Think of the bracing used in a bridge, maybe a bad example, but you remove bracing and it does get weaker.

Markcb750

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #166 on: January 19, 2011, 12:43:47 pm »
I have been following this a little; I believe the brace works primarily to keep the forks working as a pair along the centerline plane of the bike.

Picture grabbing the brace/mounting bracket by its mounting holes, it will be significantly stiff if you try to rotate or displace the mounting holes parallel to the mounting faces. It is not stiff if you try to spread the brace legs.

This stiffness will reduce the twist of the axle is it is loaded during ridding by keeping the lower part of the forks working in synchronization along the axis of the upper fork tubes.

I believe reducing axle twist keeps the wheel pointed more accurately.  Which I think is the reason bikes where Honda put rubber grommets in the system felt less secure then the prior models.

The Brace will also reduce the frictional loading of the system by keeping the lower tubes aligned. Picture the bending of the forks that occurs as the system is loaded from a pothole. The inside of the lower fork tube will rub harder on one side of the upper tube in response to this movement. This loading will impede smooth fork action would be felt as a jerky fork response.  (The new “upside-down’ fork designs improve this by making the guided surfaces inside the fork much longer then possible on our classics.)

The brace will also enable the two lower fork bodies to act a a box beam reducing the total deflection albeit nowhere as much as a racing derived brace.


The U shape of the bracket will bend open and closed easily (Nikkisixx’s test rig). This limits the stabilization of the system in the plane perpendicular to the centerline of the bike.  The Tarozzi fork brace addresses both directions, creating a box beam between the two lower fork tubes, the Axle and the brace. 


cb650PK I contacted the US rep for Tarozzi, and sent them the data they request for a new bike (my K6).  They cannot/will not adapt the brace to situations where the fender is more then 1 ½” above the lower fork top surface.



As I type I see TT also weighed in....he must type a lot faster then I do.

Offline Nikkisixx

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #167 on: January 19, 2011, 01:42:22 pm »
Any of this help?

Cheers,

sigh

No, it doesn't.  I was perfectly content to work on my current project this evening.  Now I feel compelled to screw around with this instead.  I will run the forks through the paces and document it.  I am still (barely) objective enough to do so. 
Bottoms up
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #168 on: January 19, 2011, 02:10:36 pm »
Nikki, TG has commented on the same thing i said, just anchor the wheel with brace attached and try twisting it by the bars, then do the same without the brace, while not being very scientific it will show you that you can feel the difference, it only makes sense mate as that little brace HAS to make twisting the front end more difficult, there is no way you can say that it doesn't add resistance.... Stationary tests are a waste of time really, there's no way you can guess the gyroscopic forces the front wheel puts into the equation as well, or deflection caused by bumps in the road and so on.....

Mick
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #169 on: January 19, 2011, 02:24:58 pm »
You know, what TT said, which I didn't have the energy to say.

But, did I not say in a sentence or two that all parts together work as a system?
No.


Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #170 on: January 19, 2011, 02:38:52 pm »
You know, what TT said, which I didn't have the energy to say.

But, did I not say in a sentence or two that all parts together work as a system?

Its hard to get it through that it HAS TO ADD RESISTANCE..... ???  Which HAS TO BE BETTER.... ;)

Mick
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Offline Goofaroo

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #171 on: January 19, 2011, 04:04:26 pm »
Quote
I might as well try to convince Kingscustoms that God does not exist.

You have a far greater chance convincing Kingcustoms that there is no God than convincing us that the Honda engineers were so busy figuring out how to mount the fender that they forgot to add a fork brace.

Offline scottly

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #172 on: January 19, 2011, 04:34:35 pm »
I rigged up a test today. With the forks turned to the left against the steering stop, I mounted an indicator to read the movement at the rear of the rim, and hooked a spring scale to the front. All readings are with 20 pounds pulling on the wheel.
No fender mount: .100"
Stock K7 mount with rubber bushings: .100"
K7 mount with bushings removed, sandwiched between washers: .080"
Aftermarket brace: .040"
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #173 on: January 19, 2011, 04:39:20 pm »
An interesting result.

Aye, I was wrong! 20% increase at 20lbs in keeping the axle parallel to the handlebars is unpossible with the stock 'brace'! It obviously adds nothing to the structural integrity!

I'm shamed.

Put it to 40lbs, scottly, if you can.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 04:41:02 pm by mlinder »
No.


Offline Nikkisixx

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Re: Structural integrity of Stock forks w/ out fender?
« Reply #174 on: January 19, 2011, 05:42:45 pm »
Friends, riders, fellow SOHCers, let me begin by saying that a brace is a thing of beauty and a joy to behold.  I myself have an aftermarket piece fixed to my own cycle and I am quite happy with it.  Also, let me say that I don’t take offense to anyone’s opinions or comments.  I’d be quite happy sitting down, having coffee, talking bikes, and having this conversation in person.  It would be a darn site easier.  One more thing – while you sit and read this sipping your coffee in your PJs or a beer in your boxers, please remember that I was in the garage wasting my time when I could have been working on my bikes ;)
The original post is as follows:
“I got this off of Airtech's Website:

CR7504
Front Fender
This is the front blade that replaces the steel front fender. Honda engineers designed the front forks on your motorcycle to work with that heavy steel brace on the front. Do not run your front forks without the steel brace, severe wobbling will occur. Simply take your stock fender and drill the rivets out to remove the steel fender from the fork brace and the front and rear hoops and reattach this fender onto your steel hardware. This lightweight fiberglass piece actually takes a lot of weight off your front fork assembly and helps the suspension reaction and makes your bike handle better.

Any idea how accurate that statement in red is?”
I don’t presume to know what other people think, and there aren’t any Honda engineers who worked on that project present.  Too bad, we’ll never know for sure if that statement is accurate.  Perhaps contact Airtech and find out where they got that information?

Since one can’t know what the intention of that extra steel under the fender is for sure, it would be interesting to test the validity of the statement.   Therefore, I post the following hypothesis:
The stock fender of a Honda SOHC provides sufficient input to be considered a “BRACE” where a brace is defined as a structural member that improves the stiffness of the front suspension more than 5%. 
For the sake of discussion, I tested the rigidity of a stock CB500 fender.  While it has been pointed out that a fuse tested in isolation will not indicate the potential speed of the motorcycle, it is useful to know if that fuse is capable of carrying the load of its intended circuit. 
Clamping the left mounting tabs in a vice, I dangled a weight from the right tabs and measured the deflection of the fender.  The weight (now accurately measure at 2 lbs 3 oz) deflected the fender .050 of an inch.  That is about the thickness of a quarter.

It was then suggested that the test be performed in a different plane.  Done, with the same result:

This test was quickly disputed as invalid.  While it is only circumstantial to the stated hypothesis, it is telling.  Neither the material of the fender nor its shape provides the rigidity of items that are commercially available as a brace. I assure you, two pounds does not deflect this item 0.050:


The free floating fender rigidity test was deemed inconclusive.  “The fender in isolation is not a true test of its prowess.”  Fair enough.  For the rest of the test I pulled out the front end from a ’76 CB750F.  It is in good shape, and I intend to use it on my current project.


Does the fender provide a significant force to aid in keeping the fork slider parallel?  To find out I bolted up the hub and axel to the sliders tubes.  This assembly was fastened to the press to hold it steady.  A dial gauge and the 2lb3oz weight from the first test were put into service.   

With no fender adding 2 lbs to a specific point on the tube resulted in a deflection of 0.015 inches


Installing the block for the brake caliper and rigidly (no rubbers) bolting up the fender I tested again.

With or without the fender, an equal force resulted in an equal deflection.  Installing the upper clamps might seem the next logical step.  Doing so, I could not apply enough force to push the sliders out of parallel without fear of bending tubes. 

Does the fender provide enough structure to keep the sliders even or the handlebars and axel parallel?  To test this everything was tightened to spec, and a piece of pipe fitted between the clamps to simulate the neck. 
I fitted the entire assembly in a press.  One of the axel caps was position in such a was so that force was applied to one side of the front end

A point was marked on each slider and both sides of the lower clamp, and a measurement was taken.  At rest, the lower clamp was positioned 3.25 inches from the sliders on both sides.

The fork was compressed until the loaded side reached 1.30 inches.  At this point the unloaded side read 1.34 inches.  A difference of 0.040 inches.

The process was repeated with the fender bolted in place.  The results were the same: 0.040 deflection.
No other forces were tested.  Does the fender keep the wheel in check around the steering head?  I would say any force that can twist the wheel in that direction would simply move the handlebars.  Can the fender keep the sliders from rotating around the axel?  Movement in this plane would not change the geometry between the handle  bars and the axel.
I can’t make the fender provide a 5% delta.  I’m leaving the conclusions up to ya’ll.  My opinion won’t sway you one way or the other.  I will say that the front end is pretty darn stout all things considered.  A fender keeps the rocks and rain off you and the bike, provides a place for the speedo and brake lines, and gives you one more thing to polish (or not). 



It is a proven fact that modifying a SOHC Honda in any way will bring on the apocalypse.