Topic: Alloy vs Titanium retainers?

[brandEn]

I am getting ready to plunk down the cash for the rest of my topend build. One of the things I need are new valve spring retainers. Cycle X sells alloy aluminum retainers for $100 or I could get Titanium retainers for $175 from Dynoman. Whats the difference here? are the cheaper alloy retainers going to be just as good or should I suck it up and drop the extra $75 for the titanium? Confused on the difference and trying to save where I can,

78 CB750 F3

[turboguzzi]

do you actually race or keep the motor constantly near redline? or do you have a really really lumpy cam?

if not, cant see why you'd want to shell out the extra money over stock steel keepers if you have no use for the advantage of a lower reciprocating mass. Keepers in both ally and Ti are also bound to last less than steel.

TG

[brandEn]

no not a racer, but my motor should be pretty hot with my new 836 kit, port work and cam. Also, my oem parts are shot so I need to buy stuff anyway.

[Mandic]

I am a fan of when replacing one or two components, replacing most of the ones that seem to make sense.  You know in 1000 miles you'll be sitting along the highway with a broken stock retainer going, "should have spent the $100"... 

With that said, on my 77 F2 I got the full Cycle X cylinder head kit.  Cost me almost $400 with valves, guides, seals, springs, and their alloy retainers.  The retainers are light, and look well made.  I feel like I'd rather have the titanium ones, but for the money they seem plenty strong and nice to me. 

I will be tearing my engine out and at least getting the head off of the bike yet today.  So when I do I will post pictures of the stock retainers aside the Cycle-X ones.

[MCRider]

GENERALLY Speaking: the alum alloy are the lightest and softest. So the top RPM Dragsters use them, and keep an eye on them for pulling thru (dropping a valve). I may be over cautious but i couldn't sleep with aluminum alloy keepers in a basically high performance touring engine, that's going to churn out thousands of miles at a pop, I hope.

The Ti are the mid weights, but stronger than the alum alloy, but only slightly heavier. Suitable for racing but also long distance engines that won't be coming apart often for inspection.

And the stock are the heaviest and strongest. (Stronger than Ti? I don't know, I didn't think so, but I have no proof). Would like to hear from someone who knows.

I went with the Ti on my engine.

[Mandic]

Now you are making me paranoid and I was already a little antsy about it.  I ordered the alloys before I saw the titanium pieces.  I guess I am going to need to pay a decent bit of attention to them.  I mean realistically you should be able to inspect the retainers through the tappet plugs.  Not as well as I'd like with a serious tear down, but at least somewhat. 

Sooner or later I plan to build an 836 so I think I'll just run the alloys for now, inspect them every oil change or so, and hope for the best.

[Mark M]

So the lesson here today was:

ONLY EVER ask the which is better question before you commit - once you have then just DONT ASK, it's already too late

[MCRider]

Now you are making me paranoid and I was already a little antsy about it.  I ordered the alloys before I saw the titanium pieces.  I guess I am going to need to pay a decent bit of attention to them.  I mean realistically you should be able to inspect the retainers through the tappet plugs.  Not as well as I'd like with a serious tear down, but at least somewhat.  

Sooner or later I plan to build an 836 so I think I'll just run the alloys for now, inspect them every oil change or so, and hope for the best.

Yes it won't require a full teardown for inspection. You'll see where they are relative to the top of the valvestem. memorize it. If they are pulling thru, you'll see that retainer rising. If you go to the dragstrip, or have a lively Friday night, then pull the tappet covers the next AM, and check. You'll need to set your valves after a race session anyway. And by lively, i mean overrevving, missing shifts, 20 fast passes, etc. Not just one run down the street once in awhile.

Or if you tie a few long distance days together.

Then... do it again!  

My guess is the alloys today are better than what was used back when those GENERALIZATIONS were made. You won't have any problems.

This link says Ti is stronger and lighter than steel
http://www.titaniumweb.50g.com/#Titanium retainers
However i don't consider this conclusive, just evidence.

[crazypj]

I've never broken a stock retainer or even heard of one breaking (sure someone will chime in saying they broke hundreds  )
 As mentioned, alloy is lightest and weakest.
 Are they hard anodised or 'bare' alloy?
 Anodising improves strength.
 You should measure how far valve stem protrudes through retainers and write it down.
 (use depth bar on Vernier caliper)
 Check after 500 miles, they will have bedded in and give different numbers, shouldn't be more than a couple of thou.
 Should be OK checking at normal service intervals after that, you should be able to 'catch' any excessive movement.

 BTW,
don't even think you can visually see or remember the last position, you really need measurements, and they need writing down.
 building semi-race motors for street use is fine but they do need a lot more work to maintain properly

[MCRider]

crazypj: VERY good advice.

[MCRider]

Another "Ti stronger than most steel" retainer link  (scroll down)
http://www.compcams.com/catalog/COMP2011/pdf/COMP_Catalog_2011_353-355.pdf

That's what I'm coming up with mostly in my searches. Ti is the strongest, Alum Alloy is the lightest, Stockers are fine, just not primo.

And really, dropping a valve in any but the most extreme use cases is very rare, regardless of the retainer.

[Mandic]

They are hard anodized 7075 Aluminum retainers.  I had figured on measuring valve stem height and taking photos, not just looking and trying to remember.  Learned that lesson long ago, haha.

[turboguzzi]

a big bore 836 is certainly not going to be revving higher than stock so would seriously question going for alternatives materials to stock steel retainers,

 i do use Ti retainers on my 500/4 racer as it often sees 13,000 rpm but i've run the first two seasons with stock steel, no problems.

my tuner friend still recomended checking visually the Ti retainers after each race meeting as the Ti colar might loose some material and spring tension due to fretting against the steel collets.

would not use either alloy or Ti on a street motor, building now an all out kawa 750/810 four road race motor for next season, that motor is going to live constantly around 10K rpm and i am still going to use stock steel retainers,

TG

[MCRider]

a big bore 836 is certainly not going to be revving higher than stock so would seriously question going for alternatives materials to stock steel retainers,

 i do use Ti retainers on my 500/4 racer as it often sees 13,000 rpm but i've run the first two seasons with stock steel, no problems.

my tuner friend still recomended checking visually the Ti retainers after each race meeting as the Ti colar might loose some material and spring tension due to fretting against the steel collets.

would not use either alloy or Ti on a street motor, building now an all out kawa 750/810 four road race motor for next season, that motor is going to live constantly around 10K rpm and i am still going to use stock steel retainers,

TG

With all due respect, I'll disagree witha few points and invite comments.
An 836c can easily rev past stock redline. The stock revs are limited by valve float. Cure that with springs and 10,000 and beyond is easy.

i'd agree on checking retainers of any kind after a race, etc.

I'd respect and agree about your choice not to use alloy on a street motor. But why not Ti?

I just spent way too much time on a google search "are steel retainers stronger than Ti"? Tons of info mostly car stuff, without a single response saying steel is stronger or in any way superior to Ti. I did run across responses that there is different grades of Ti and steel. Tool steel retainers could be stronger than a poor grade of Ti. But generally speaking, even tool grade steel retainers are not superior to aircraft quality Ti. i certainly did not read all of the responses.

I know none of this first hand, just what i read. So I'd respect your opinion without argument.

[Mandic]

Can anyone tell me what type of steel the stock retainers are made of?  I mean if they are really just pressed steel from the 70s, I can't imagine it is anything to rave about.

Titanium alloys(the pieces we are seeing are likely not pure titanium) will almost always have a higher tensile strength than steel.  It is a bit more brittle, but I don't know how hard a valve is shock loading that titanium.  If we are worrying about wear as it rubbing against it and wearing in, I'd be amazed to see the old steel pieces wear worse than the modern Titanium pieces.

Steel is a VERY broad word.  It could be Chromoly, Stainless, Cold Rolled, Hot Rolled, Heat Treated Carbon Steel, there are a ton of materials the word can cover.  And they can be VASTLY different in their strength characteristics. 

IF you go off a chart like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength  Every form of steel is weaker than Titanium save for Chromoly Steel.  Which I HIGHLY doubt Honda was producing Chromoly Retainers back in the day. 

Also are the retainers we are discussing stamped steel or machined from billet material?  Machined pieces will have more material to them in the key areas to make them stronger.  And once metal is bent once(like stamping) it is made weaker by the process.  Unless treated afterward in some manner it will just be a weakened piece of metal. 

A lot of our bikes are probably being put through abuse Honda never intended them to go through. 

Personally I've only hit 10,000 RPMs once or twice on my bike.  I have no intention of it being a weekend racer.  If I want more power it is down low for coming harder out of a corner and a bit of passing power. 

[turboguzzi]

ultimate tensile strength is not the only criteria in a part like a retainer, the collets create very high localized pressure around the inner cone and what comes into play there is material surface hardness, the rockwell number if you wish. Ti simply isnt as hard as hi-carbon, heat treated steel i'd expect to find in collars. That's why my tuner friend recommended checking Ti retainers specifically very often, just bad experience with the cone area sinking, not the overall strength of the collar.  

and no, sohc collars are not stamped, they are turned / machined.

TG

[brandEn]

Wow this thread has really taken off, almost like an oil thread! Great info here.

[Retro Rocket]

I have TI retainers in my engine, it was originally a 10 second methanol bike and they are still fine, they were first put in in the early 80's...

Mick

[solo 2]

ultimate tensile strength is not the only criteria in a part like a retainer, the collets create very high localized pressure around the inner cone and what comes into play there is material surface hardness, the rockwell number if you wish. Ti simply isnt as hard as hi-carbon, heat treated steel i'd expect to find in collars. That's why my tuner friend recommended checking Ti retainers specifically very often, just bad experience with the cone area sinking, not the overall strength of the collar.  

and no, sohc collars are not stamped, they are turned / machined.

TG

Titanium has a tendancy to work harden VERY quickly, it will wear chromoly down once this happens. Ask any machinist what happens if you work harden Ti, only carbide will cut it. The retainers will quickly work harden the Ti I would think.

[MCRider]

ultimate tensile strength is not the only criteria in a part like a retainer, the collets create very high localized pressure around the inner cone and what comes into play there is material surface hardness, the rockwell number if you wish. Ti simply isnt as hard as hi-carbon, heat treated steel i'd expect to find in collars. That's why my tuner friend recommended checking Ti retainers specifically very often, just bad experience with the cone area sinking, not the overall strength of the collar.  

and no, sohc collars are not stamped, they are turned / machined.

TG

Thanks, I appreciate the perspective and info.

[anders288]

I have owned and operated a machine shop for over 20 years and have worked with Ti. It about the same as weight as alum and stronger than steel it has very good ware resistant. almost impossible to grind. I would install ti retainers for the street and forget them. 

[TwoTired]

Um. Those that are commenting,  Did you know?
The F2/F3 red lines are 9500 RPM.
Yes, they will go over red lines if asked.

I was also under the impression that the F2/F3 cam had a higher lift than all previous 750 SOHC4 models.
And, to go with the high lift cam and the higher red line, stiffer valve springs were used, in order for the valves to stay following the cam profile and get back in the seats with the high RPM.

I would not go with aluminum retainers unless you plan routine checks on them, like you would if you were just drag racing.

For long term durability without much worry, I'd go with the titanium valve spring retainers.  Given the issues that the F2/3 had, it seems clear that they were just extending the model's life for better competitive performance, and trading off durability for the engine.  Which probably explains why they just used the steel retainers from the Honda parts bin, selling to a price point.  Soichiro was no longer at the helm of the company when these models were sold, businessmen were.

Cheers,

[tweakin]

Thanks for chiming in....so I could see your avatar

Really I value the opinions of all the members on this forum and find it to be a wealth of knowledge.  I just tore down my head since I had a sticking valve causing a knock sound at cold start up.  I tore it down to inspect the top end, luckily a sticking valve was all it was.  I guess thats what I get for trying to do my first head job, but I learned a lot.  Thank god for the Hednut (Gordon) frame kit!

This time around I am sending my head off to by built by a pro and going with Ti retainers.

Um. Those that are commenting,  Did you know?
The F2/F3 red lines are 9500 RPM.
Yes, they will go over red lines if asked.

I was also under the impression that the F2/F3 cam had a higher lift than all previous 750 SOHC4 models.
And, to go with the high lift cam and the higher red line, stiffer valve springs were used, in order for the valves to stay following the cam profile and get back in the seats with the high RPM.

I would not go with aluminum retainers unless you plan routine checks on them, like you would if you were just drag racing.

For long term durability without much worry, I'd go with the titanium valve spring retainers.  Given the issues that the F2/3 had, it seems clear that they were just extending the model's life for better competitive performance, and trading off durability for the engine.  Which probably explains why they just used the steel retainers from the Honda parts bin, selling to a price point.  Soichiro was no longer at the helm of the company when these models were sold, businessmen were.

Cheers,