Topic: Gun-Kote on engine/ frame instead of paint or powdercoat?

[nomad]

I was reading a thread where this was briefly brought up, but am seeking more insight.  Anyone else here use Gun-Kote to paint their frame and motor?  If so, how easy was it to use and how has it held up?  I've had a gunsmith coat a couple of my pea shooters with this stuff and with many, many, many rounds thrown down range, the coating held up remarkably well.  I figured if it can handle the abuse of that and hold up as good as it has, a motorcycle frame & engine should provide an easy life for the stuff.  Hell, according to their site, Gun-Kote meets and exceeds military and aerospace specs.  

http://www.kgcoatings.com/motorcycle/automotive/

I'm not sure of the exact product to use though.  Yesterday I called them to get their input on the matter, but got a message saying that they were short staffed for the next week because of the Shot Show in Vegas.

[greenjeans]

I've seen a few frames that were "blued"  at least that's what we called it back in the good 'ol days.

Don't know what exactly what it is, but the frames I've seen look pretty cool.   I think you'd still have to keep an eye on the frame, especially if it's kept outside
day and night.   It was developed for firearms - firearms are usually kept clean and dry.

The cleaner that you have the frame, the better it will look.   The frames I saw were sanded up to about 1000 grit (granted they were show bikes) and were just
beautiful.  It's all in the prep work.

As cheap as it is, you can't go wrong...almost nothing to lose.    I'd be curious to see how well it mimics annodizing.

You don't see it much at all.   Do it.

[axehole54]

don't know about the durability but i agree it'd look great

[nomad]

I've seen a few frames that were "blued"  at least that's what we called it back in the good 'ol days.

Don't know what exactly what it is, but the frames I've seen look pretty cool.   I think you'd still have to keep an eye on the frame, especially if it's kept outside
day and night.   It was developed for firearms - firearms are usually kept clean and dry.

The cleaner that you have the frame, the better it will look.   The frames I saw were sanded up to about 1000 grit (granted they were show bikes) and were just
beautiful.  It's all in the prep work.

As cheap as it is, you can't go wrong...almost nothing to lose.    I'd be curious to see how well it mimics annodizing.

You don't see it much at all.   Do it.

Gun Kote isn't like a traditional blueing you see on older guns.  That traditional blueing sure is pretty on those old guns, but it didn't hold up at all in nasty hunting environments for extended periods.  Gun Kote is more of an all weather, protective, durable coating.  It feels like a "slick" almost lubricated paint finish.  I can't think of a better way to describe it.  Anyway, the link in the first post is to their line of motorcycle & automotive products.  If they sell their product specifically for motorcycle applications, I figured it must be some pretty good stuff.  I just didn't know if anyone around here had personally used the stuff.

[Kong]

Does your gun regularly get banged with little pebbles, bugs, and small rocks at speeds between 1 and 101 miles per hour, in the rain, sun, and occasionally sleet, hail, and snow?  Does your gun get exposed to these conditions every day of the year. 

Automotive paints are designed to withstand the day to day abuse of motor vehicles on real world roadways.  The manufacturers of those paints spend hundreds of millions of dollars (and other currencies) developing the best overall coatings available for the conditions they face, I'd put my money on them rather than stuff made for another and much more pampered life.   

[nomad]

Does your gun regularly get banged with little pebbles, bugs, and small rocks at speeds between 1 and 101 miles per hour, in the rain, sun, and occasionally sleet, hail, and snow?  Does your gun get exposed to these conditions every day of the year.  

Automotive paints are designed to withstand the day to day abuse of motor vehicles on real world roadways.  The manufacturers of those paints spend hundreds of millions of dollars (and other currencies) developing the best overall coatings available for the conditions they face, I'd put my money on them rather than stuff made for another and much more pampered life.  

So automotive paints and powdercoats won't chip or crack when hit with pebbles, bugs and small rocks while going between 1 and 101 MPH?  

[lone*X]

Powder coat is probably the toughest, short of nickel plating, of the standard coatings.  While I don't have any experience with Gun-Kote I do have a lot of experience with a lot of things called Mil Spec.  Mil Spec. paints and coatings are basically the same as everyday commercial products except that they are flat to be non reflective.  Drove a bunch of "Mil Spec" painted vehicles and they were just as scratched up and dinged as Bubba's four wheeler down the street. 

This does make me think though, what would a Parkerized frame look like?

[nomad]

http://www.kgcoatings.com/images/pdf/2400_Series_Data_Sheet.pdf

Below are a few sections cut and pasted from the above PDF.  Now, I'm not saying everything written here is the gospel truth, but it does seem to deserve a closer look.  I don't want to dismiss it simply because it wasn't original made for the automotive/ motorcycle industry.  Look at Line-X.  They've made quite a name for themselves outside of the pickup bed market.

2400 Series Protective Finishes Technical Data Sheet
 
The 2400 Series is a hard, abrasion resistant coating which meets or exceeds all military and aerospace specifications for protective coatings.  With a pencil hardness of greater than 9H, the 2400 Series will provide a 180-degree bend without any coating loss.  The 2400 is formulated to provide excellent impact resistance, lubricity (meets military dry firing specifications), heat dissipation, chemical resistance, corrosion protection, durability and scratch resistance.  The cured coating will not attract dirt or dust.  The 2400 Series coatings can be sprayed and formulated for dip-spin application and also to meet specific customer’s needs.

Marketed under the trademarked name Gun Kote, it is an outstanding general-purpose coating for use in the sporting goods, construction, and for general light to heavy industrial equipment.  Gun Kote can also be custom formulated to meet specific needs for extra lubricity, corrosion or durability.

Gun Kote 16/2 Flat Dark Earth (2404F) is specified by the U.S. Military for use on SOCOM Special Sniper Weapons (SPR’s) in 2003.  The 2404F continues to be specified for most new special weapons.

------------------------------

Technical General:
Outstanding corrosion protection up to 1000 salt spray tests at 5% salt.  Tests performed for Armscor by the South African Navel Logistics Dept. showed Gun Kote withstanding an equivalent of a 7-year exposure. (Tests were performed on Aluminum in a salt spray chamber with 50/50 on/off time at 35 degrees C.)

Meets or exceeds Military requirements to "Resistant to Chemicals" such as, Aviation Gasoline, Grade 115/145, Jet Fuel, JP-4, Lubrication Oil, Hydraulic Fluid, Non-petroleum, Paint Remover, Epoxy Systemlene, Nitric Acid, Hydrochloric Acid, Hydrogen Peroxide, Ammonia Hydroxide, Sodium Hydroxide NaOH, Sulfuric Acid H2SO4 3%, Sodium Bisulphide, NaHS 3% and Alkaline Cleaner, Highly Chelated (ANN-RO #101).

Outstanding heat dissipating qualities.

Outstanding temperature variation (500 to 800 degrees F and as low as - 300 degrees F with suitable pigments)

Outstanding lubrication qualities (can be formulated to meet most release specifications).

------------------------------

Uses:
1.  Exterior of weapons (including clips) of all types from handguns to G5 and G6 heavy artillery and bomb casings.
2.  Engine blocks and heads to dissipate heat.
3.  Engine water jackets and water pumps to act as a barrier between dissimilar metals.
4.  Protection from corrosion while helping to transfer heat and coolant.
5.  Transmission cases and rear end housings to transfer heat from housings.
6.  Radiators, Oil and Transmission Coolers, to dissipate heat.
7.  Outboard Motors
8.  Motorcycles including external and internal motor parts
9.  Boat Cleats and other marine hardware

[swellguy]

I've not used the product, not seen any results form it that I was aware of not even heard about from this thread.

But from what I can glean from their website, most of their products seem to be a two part epoxy spray on type application - there is one single part air dry product - that either require extensive curing (up to 500 hours) or high temperature curing. Some of the results from their product gallery are very nice looking but epoxy based coatings are essentially the basis of readily accessible powdercoating shops.

In this case, I think it's just another means of delivering a tough exterior coating to parts. I'm sure a rep would guide you to the best product for your application but, frankly, if your motor is in pieces and you want o do something like this, I'd take it a powdercoater who has far more finish options available than this company.

And it's far less of a hassle.

[swellguy]

I guess I should add or ask, what are thinking of coating? Is it a complete motor now or completely in pieces?

[lone*X]

 "After allowing the coating to dry, hang parts in an air-circulating oven and
bake for at least 1 hour at 325F. Bake time starts when parts reach the curing temperature. " 

Small parts may be a DIY proposition but frames would be a different issue.  You would need someones walk in powder coat oven for large objects like the frame.

[nomad]

I guess I should add or ask, what are thinking of coating? Is it a complete motor now or completely in pieces?

I'm going to coat the frame and the engine (which at this point is still in the frame).  After I find a set of pipes and can make sure no hangers need to be welded on, I will remove the motor for a complete rebuild.  So, to answer the question, it will be in pieces when this is done (whatever direction it ends up being).

[nomad]

"After allowing the coating to dry, hang parts in an air-circulating oven and
bake for at least 1 hour at 325F. Bake time starts when parts reach the curing temperature. " 

Small parts may be a DIY proposition but frames would be a different issue.  You would need someones walk in powder coat oven for large objects like the frame.

Yeah, that is a drawback compared to paint, but I should be able to find a shop that can do it... even if I have to ship it.

[Ricky_Racer]

In my limited experience, epoxy-based coatings are frequently UV sensitive. Not sure about Gun-Kote, but the specs seem to omit that issue.  RR

[nomad]

In my limited experience, epoxy-based coatings are frequently UV sensitive. Not sure about Gun-Kote, but the specs seem to omit that issue.  RR

Thanks.  I'll be sure to ask about potential UV issues when I get the chance to talk to one of their reps.  But looking at the "uses" they list (outboard motors, boat cleats and other marine hardware) I would imagine it would have to be fairly UV resistant to stand up in a harsh, UV intense marine environment.  It's definitely worth looking into though.

[Retro Rocket]

In my limited experience, epoxy-based coatings are frequently UV sensitive. Not sure about Gun-Kote, but the specs seem to omit that issue.  RR

Thats exactly right RR, i work with epoxy's more than any other paint {industrial painter} and there are not many that are UV rated, poly urethane paints are what we use for UV protection {not all these PU finishes are UV rated either}....The paint will eventually fog if not UV rated, this can happen within days or weeks depending on the product...

Mick

[Hinomaru]

Nomad, I like this Gun Kote idea. 

No experience with Gun Kote on a bike frame, but it sure sounds like Gun Kote is very similar to the various baked-on thermal engine coatings. If that's the case, then it's a tough coating and probably will stand up to a motorcycle frame application. Here's a couple of thermal coating links:

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/engine_coatings_review_tech/index.html

http://www.techlinecoatings.com/BulkEngine.htm

From the Technical Data Sheet: The 2400 Series is a hard, abrasion resistant coating which meets or exceeds all military and aerospace specifications for protective coatings. With a pencil hardness of greater than 9H, the 2400 Series will provide a 180-degree bend without any coating loss.

What's a pencil hardness test?

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Testing_Your_Coatings_Hardness.html

If you are really serious about performing a pencil hardness test:

http://www.gardco.com/pages/hardness/h501pencilhardness.cfm

[Retro Rocket]

As long as it is baked properly, certain powder coats are just as durable....

Mick

[FunJimmy]

Nomad

I came across Gun-Kote a couple of years ago too, and it sounds like the bee’s knees to me, but finding anyone with experience in Canada was a no go.

I’d be very interested in using Gun-Kote on an engine if I knew who applied it in my area. BTW, I was cautioned about powder coating an air cooled engine because of the thermal insulative properties. I’m not an expert here so it could be BS, but I’m sure we’ll get a response from some all knowing member soon. 

[swellguy]

I came across Gun-Kote a couple of years ago too, and it sounds like the bee’s knees to me, but finding anyone with experience in Canada was a no go.

I’d be very interested in using Gun-Kote on an engine if I knew who applied it in my area. BTW, I was cautioned about powder coating an air cooled engine because of the thermal insulative properties. I’m not an expert here so it could be BS, but I’m sure we’ll get a response from some all knowing member soon. 

I might contact the manufacturer to ask who some of their regular clients are. That might track down shops that do it. Lots of guys ship frames and other parts to places far off to get good work done, so this might wind up being the way to go.

That said, when I read about something called Gun-Kote and it's industrial/military applications, I have no doubt about it's durability. My question is whether it's possible overkill?

There are so many qualified and competent powdercoating shops that you can even call around and get competitive pricing. It, too, is an epoxy coating and is durable as hell. Plus, there are tons of colors, treatments and finishes; I can't imagine no doing it this way. If you want to gun-kote a frame black, I just sense it could become an overly expensive, possibly unnecessary step too far.

In terms of thermo-insular concerns, I've powedercoated parts on or entire engines that were air cooled. I never did any testing before or after and I suppose any kind of high temp coating, maybe even paint, would have a similar effect. I think exhaust wrap probably does more to heat an engine more than powdercoating.

My last engine is still in a build process, 99 Buell Thunderstorm. Silver lower cases, satin black jugs, chrome rocker boxes:



Looks great, durable as hel, not expensive, done locally. It's how I'll be my 750 sohc motor next year.

[cavebear]

I used Gun Kote on a race engine I built in 1978. It simply sprays on and is baked at 325 degrees. It is impervious to everything including hydralic brake fluid. The only thing that might affect it is acid. The cases still look like new after all these years. Unless the color has been modified it will be a matte/semi gloss charcoal gray.

[Bodi]

I put black Gun-Kote on a 400F engine maybe 25 years ago. It's faded slightly in some spots, no other issues, still looks great. Bike fell over and the alternator cover scraped, I have tried a few paints etc on the replacement and none look as good. The finish is a very dark grey/brown that looks black if you don't really study it, maybe it's the aluminum showing through. There doesn't seem to be a coating, more like it's colored into the metal. i don't know what the new kinds and colors look like.
They didn't have as many products then, I probably had what they call "original". It came in spray cans then, now you get liquid and use a spraypaint rig or brush/dip your stuff.
I got some on case bearing bores but it didn't cause a problem. The overspray is like brown dots, no apparent raised surface just discoloration on the metal. I painted bare cases and barrels after beadblasting and cleaning. I baked the parts in a normal oven, smelled really nasty but I lived... I don't know about toxic fumes, but the lady of the house was close to killing me for doing it in "her" oven.
Amazing stuff, I would use it again. Go for it.

[axehole54]

anyone checked this out? www.eastwood.com/hotcoat-powder-coating.html

[nomad]

anyone checked this out? www.eastwood.com/hotcoat-powder-coating.html

I'm always kind of leery when I hear or read a sales pitch like "Professional powder coating results at home!"  I see it as most other trade specific endeavors.  The right tools and equipment often (but not necessarily always) can make all the difference in the world in the final results.  Knowledge and proper prep goes a long way too.  It would take a lot of convincing to make me go at my own bike with this kit in my driveway.

[technetium-99m]

No experience with Gunkote but I have Cerakoted many small parts on my 750 with great results.

Anything I can fit in the blast cabinet and then the oven can be coated and the coating holds up very well.