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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2011, 07:59:50 PM »
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Why does everyone expect Chine to wage war!

I was replying to the comment that Quote "I don't think there's much China could do if we said," ooops, sorry, we fuked up, can't pay, so sorry".Unquote   That is just silly and will never happen, if it did then there would be severe consequences for the US in more ways than one.

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Offline Tripps

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2011, 06:29:27 AM »
I wasn't saying that we should do that, but governments have defaulted before, we wouldn't be the first, and yes, it would have dire consequences. But I seriously question our ability to repay, barring hyperinflation. We were just discussing a "what if" situation, short of using nukes, China would be hard pressed to win on our own turf, same as we couldn't on theirs, and if they won there'd be nothing to collect, we'd really be done.

Interesting book I ordered the other day- " This Time is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly ". I especially liked the one reviewer's comment that financial meltdowns aren't mysterious events, triggered by undersea quakes, yet nobody seems to ever see them coming.

http://www.amazon.com/This-Time-Different-Centuries-Financial/dp/0691142165
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Offline Kong

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2011, 06:39:55 AM »
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Why does everyone expect Chine to wage war!

I was replying to the comment that Quote "I don't think there's much China could do if we said," ooops, sorry, we fuked up, can't pay, so sorry".Unquote   That is just silly and will never happen, if it did then there would be severe consequences for the US in more ways than one.

Mick

What you are suggesting is default on the debt.  If that were to happen - and I can assure you as a trained Economist that this is true - that the entire world economy would collapse within the hour of its announcement.  This might sound just fine at a Teabagger's rally but in the real world if we so much as seriously imply that the debt of the United States will not be honored, and I mean the full debt to every single debt holder, the effect would not only nearly instant it would be devastating to virtually every nation and economy on earth.  Absolutely no serious politician of either Party suggests it.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2011, 06:55:56 AM »
Tripps: i provided that link and referral in reply #8. I haven't read that one but i've read mnay on the subject of past meltdowns. Esp good is "Devil Take the Hindmost". In it the characterisitcs of financial crashes are summarized. IIRC, bubbles are very difficult to recognize, when you are in one (Australia); they last longer than a rational person would think; denial ("the sub prime debt problems will be contained") at the onset of the crash is rampant, there are a few others. But they all follow the same path, and the "this time its different" phrase is always heard near the end of the bubble ("We will not have any more crashes in our time" J M keynes 1927; "stock prices (or houses, or tulips, etc.) have reached a permanently high plateau...I expect to see the stock market a good deal higher within a few months" Irving Fisher PhD Oct 17, 1929; “Over the next few months, existing-home sales are expected to hold fairly steady as indicated by pending sales activity, then rise later in the year and continue to improve in 2009.”– National Association of Realtors [January 2008] followed by uninterrupted decline in housing prices to date.) I could go on.

EVERY price/debt bubble has a litany of reasons why it won't collapse, but they all do. The reasons are each unique to the time, hence "this time its different". But human response to price/debt bubbles is never ultimately different. Prices collapse, debt is defaulted. "And the devil take the hindmost" . The greatest fool buys the last house, loans the last dollar.  Reset, start over. Never the same set up, always the same outcome.

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Offline Tripps

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2011, 08:18:19 AM »
Funny, I belong to so many forums, I didn't remember where I found the book, I'm sure it was from your post, then I came back here and forgot that's where it came from. I was a greater fool in the real estate bubble, it burst locally here long before it did nationally. I owned about a million dollars worth of rental property at one time, suddenly it was worth a half million, but mortgaged for 3/4. Oh well, live and learn. No longer want to be rich, those days are behind me, just looking to sneak past St Peter, now. They say the trick is to walk in backwards, like you're walking out.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2011, 02:44:04 PM »
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bubbles are very difficult to recognize, when you are in one (Australia);

Ron, not trying to be argumentative but we are in no "Bubble". It is business as usual, we don't rely that heavily on the US and having China and India as our 2 major markets, those 2 being so big and Australia being quite small, we won't see the problems you are having in the US. For us the weather is more of a problem than the financial crisis and we had a well executed stimulus that the world monetary fund said was "worlds best practice", that staved off immediate problems and now everything is back to full steam ahead. We never had a recession and i can't see one any time soon, we had a slow down for a short period but so did everyone, they were all waiting to see what was going to happen, some suffered greatly and others didn't. We have a very stable and well placed market and it would probably take a world war to change that and i can't see that happening any time soon.... ;)

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Offline MCRider

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2011, 03:11:30 PM »
(Sorry can't leave it alone, this is my last post on the subject.)
Tripps: Sorry you got stung, but it is a lesson learned and it will happen again. We've had 3 in our lifetimes. Japan as recounted by Bobby, and 21 years later they haven't recovered (1980s Japan was financially invincable, so was thought), Internet .coms and 11 years later asset prices haven't (and never will) recover what was lost, and our own housing bubble, 5 years later and the steady decline in prices is only 50% over IMO. You say "yet nobody seems to ever see them coming." (or better you repeated it) Keep your eyes open as you read and I think you will see. Its simple to tell. Graph an asset price back 30 years or so. When it begins to accelerate above a long term trend, we call that going parabolic. You want to see one, google "Australian housing prices" (or the pre-2000 price of intel stock) it will be obvious. When the parabolic price increase exceeds 200% we have a bubble. The only thing left to decide is do you want to play or not. The end game is certain. No bubble can be blown up forever. ALL bubbles are surrounded by reasons why they won't pop. That is just noise. All bubbles pop. As you'll see as you read that book. For centuries. Circumstances change, human behavior in the aggregate does not.

As to China, they have a bubble of their own to contend with. Their 2008 stimulus package was 10 times greater by percentage than that of the US. They have redefined "building a bridge to nowhere". Just google "China's ghost towns"
and ask yourself how much longer can they continue to buy materials to build ghost towns? Well its already gone on longer that i would have thought, but that's a characeristic of a bubble. It continues to grow while sucking in more and more...suckers, while enriching the purveyors, usually the banks and the governments.

As to the OP, all currencies will be in a death spiral before this is over. The appearance will be periods of rally, followed by resumption of the decline.

AS to price/debt bubbles: they all end the same way, price collapses to the start point of the parabola, debt is defaulted on and currencies are debased to pay whats not defaulted. Reset, start over.

Hey, maybe this time its different? I don't think so.
PS: Just saw Mick's post. Mick, I have to say you're entire post is so indicative of a bubble. (Same things were said about the Internet and US housing before they popped.) (esp Japan) It's hard to see when you're in it, you need some distance. All the government has done is "kick the can down the road" Your prices have gone parabolic, worse than the US, your debt levels are worse than the US were in 2005 (household debt to assets). If you're just an observer you'll be fine. If you're like Triipp and got skin in the game, you should research an exit strategy. IMO.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2011, 03:25:44 PM »
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Hey, maybe this time its different? I don't think so.
PS: Just saw Mick's post. Mick, I have to say you're entire post is so indicative of a bubble. (Same things were said about the Internet and US housing before they popped.) (esp Japan) It's hard to see when you're in it, you need some distance. All the government has done is "kick the can down the road" Your prices have gone parabolic, worse than the US, your debt levels are worse than the US were in 2005 (household debt to assets). If you're just an observer you'll be fine. If you're like Triipp and got skin in the game, you should research an exit strategy. IMO.

The one BIG difference is the size of our economies mate, yours is so big that it has had a major effect, ours is so small we just slipped through the cracks.... ;D The housing market is entirely different here, we have a huge housing shortage and that's pushing our house prices in the cities, if this is ever addressed, and it won't happen over night , there will be a correction in prices, i have no doubts there, but it will happen slowly. Our banks don't have the freedoms yours did pre recession either so there are a lot of things that are completely different to the US and other countries. Japan is having its problems and i can see them getting worse, even having to devalue the Yen {that is a major possibility} to help balance the books. Our country is in a unique position with the diversity of product coming out, our mining industry is massive and will be there for a very long time and its diversity is immense  , we have the best beef in the world and we export massive amounts of grain and sheep. I haven't even scratched on our massive natural gas reserves yet, so in all honesty, our diversity and markets are very safe for the time being......But "yes" nothing is infallible..... ;)

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Offline Tripps

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2011, 11:37:09 AM »
PS- I force myself to remember that in the Carter years, everyone said Japan was going to surpass us as the worlds largest economy, that never happened. On another note, I just read in this morning's paper that GM sold more cars in China than in the US last year for the first time ever. Not sure if that's bad or good, but not something my Dad or Grand dad would have ever believed would come to pass.
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Offline Kong

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2011, 12:05:40 PM »
For those who haven't come to call a spade a spade just yet let me tell you where the current bubble is setting, just ready to burst.  Gold. 

Despite what the midas-touch crazies want to tell you, a gold standard is a death standard for a nation or group of nations*.  It is also sort of absurd in today world economy to think of an economy as being capitalistic or communistic or any other kind of 'istic.  Any serious inspection of the real world quickly reveals that there is no such thing as a national economic system, only banking system, and they all talk to each other at the speed of light without meaningful reference to national identity.

But back to the point, there is only one Bubble currently in  place, and it is the most idiotic of them all, its the Gold Bubble.

* the failure of a gold standard is this, any monetary system based on gold can only grow as fast as gold can be mined.  Being a non-renewable resource that means that with every ounce mined less is available to be mined and because the resource constantly becomes more scarce it will also constantly drive inflation.  On the social side (this should be obvious) more importantly it places all power in the few people who own gold mines; there is no less democratic economic system.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2011, 02:39:32 PM »
I would understand that some may applaud the end of the US Empire. The US seems to be getting back to basics and it will take a while to to get it all sorted. This crap in the Mid East is draining money at a furious rate, but that will soon end. The people support the Troops unlike Vietnam, but the people are growing impatient with the whole thing. Even high ranking Officers I know are talking getting out of there ASAP.  Once that drain ends, it will help a lot to get things on track.

China's #1 customer is the US and they have a vested interest in our well being as a customer and a debtor. The US stops buying, who will take up the slack? Very few Nations have our population and willingness to spend.

People make a big deal out of India and China with their huge populations, but a fraction of that population can purchase more than the bare necessities, this may change but it will take a very long time. It is only the Western Nations that can purchase their goods and services in the foreseeable future.

Those that provide their inputs like Coal, Iron, Oil, etc can only keep providing those inputs as long as the outputs maintain a high level.

How will this sort out? The US will probably remain a big player, China will eclipse most of the Eastern Nations as a supplier of finished goods. Life will go on.
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2011, 03:58:31 PM »
What also really pissses me off Bobby, is that now that the Oz dollar (once referred to as the "Pacific Peso") is on par with the greenback, I haven't noticed any drop in the price of good quality Bourbon? WTF? I'm paying as much now, or maybe a bit more than I was years ago when our dollar was worth squat. That really sucks..............  :P
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2011, 05:36:47 PM »
What also really pissses me off Bobby, is that now that the Oz dollar (once referred to as the "Pacific Peso") is on par with the greenback, I haven't noticed any drop in the price of good quality Bourbon? WTF? I'm paying as much now, or maybe a bit more than I was years ago when our dollar was worth squat. That really sucks..............  :P
Ha Ha, now you have learned a lesson in Capitalism. Someone over there is pocketing the difference. How dare they gouge the working man for one of the staples of life. Over here they are taking corn that could have made some perfectly good Sourmash Whiskey and fuking up our Gasoline with it. Blasphemy!!!! Is there no depth they won't stoop to.
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2011, 03:57:43 PM »
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Hey, maybe this time its different? I don't think so.
PS: Just saw Mick's post. Mick, I have to say you're entire post is so indicative of a bubble. (Same things were said about the Internet and US housing before they popped.) (esp Japan) It's hard to see when you're in it, you need some distance. All the government has done is "kick the can down the road" Your prices have gone parabolic, worse than the US, your debt levels are worse than the US were in 2005 (household debt to assets). If you're just an observer you'll be fine. If you're like Triipp and got skin in the game, you should research an exit strategy. IMO.

The one BIG difference is the size of our economies mate, yours is so big that it has had a major effect, ours is so small we just slipped through the cracks.... ;D The housing market is entirely different here, we have a huge housing shortage and that's pushing our house prices in the cities, if this is ever addressed, and it won't happen over night , there will be a correction in prices, i have no doubts there, but it will happen slowly. Our banks don't have the freedoms yours did pre recession either so there are a lot of things that are completely different to the US and other countries. Japan is having its problems and i can see them getting worse, even having to devalue the Yen {that is a major possibility} to help balance the books. Our country is in a unique position with the diversity of product coming out, our mining industry is massive and will be there for a very long time and its diversity is immense  , we have the best beef in the world and we export massive amounts of grain and sheep. I haven't even scratched on our massive natural gas reserves yet, so in all honesty, our diversity and markets are very safe for the time being......But "yes" nothing is infallible..... ;)

Mick

Hey Mick I heard that because of the housing shortage there was some talk about amending the immigration laws to allow people in the building trades (like me) ;) to get a 3 year work visa and then after that apply for residency. Looking for an option to bail during the coming Palin/Bachmann Administration.  ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 04:45:29 PM by srust58 »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2011, 04:04:09 PM »
You would be correct Steve, actually it really pisses me off because the Government is bringing migrants to work rebuilding Brisbane where we have a chronic housing shortage... ???  So the housing shortage just got worse.....I want to go hunting politicians, only to check and see if they have any friggin brains...... >:( I have a funny Palin pic i'll send you in a PM.... ;D

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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2011, 04:27:33 PM »
You would be correct Steve, actually it really pisses me off because the Government is bringing migrants to work rebuilding Brisbane where we have a chronic housing shortage... ???  

Mick

But, but..... I would be acceptable right :'(  I would even promise to eat and enjoy Vegemite. ;D

great pic although the C word is pretty unacceptable here in public. ;D
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 04:32:16 PM by srust58 »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2011, 04:38:36 PM »
You would be correct Steve, actually it really pisses me off because the Government is bringing migrants to work rebuilding Brisbane where we have a chronic housing shortage... ???  

Mick

But, but..... I would be acceptable right :'(  I would even promise to eat and enjoy Vegemite. ;D

great pic although the C word is pretty unacceptable here in public. ;D

Yeah they would probably have no problems with you Steve, the Vegemite could seal the deal for you.... ;D
As for the Palin pic, thats why i PMed it to you.... ;)

Mick
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: The almighty buck aint so mighty
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2011, 10:07:14 PM »
Even with the current problems it is the currency that matters.  I remember how in the eighties it was all over for the U.S. as Japan was going to eat our lunch.  Where are they now?  Just a few years ago the euro was going to replace the dollar as the new global currency.  Where is it now?  This latest turmoil in Tunisia and Egypt has global investors fleeing to the...you guessed it...the dollar.