Author Topic: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant  (Read 19935 times)

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Offline flybox1

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dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« on: January 25, 2011, 12:30:58 PM »
http://www.all-spec.com/products/G100L-2DB.html

why shouldnt we use this instead of diaelectric grease?
I dont know enough about silicon outgassing insulation/resistance and plethora of electrical issues that can plague our bikes to make an informed decision....
Hopefully some of you can enlighten me/us.

found this article on http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=533996

As written by Wayne Orwig, MGNOC Georgia State Rep.

Using Dielectric Grease on connectors.

A lot of people use dielectric grease on connectors. Some people mistakenly believe that dieletric grease is a conductor. In fact, it is just the opposite; it is an insulator. Dielectric grease is typically made of silicone grease.

As an insulator, dielectric grease is good for use on spark plug boots. This was one of the original applications on vehicles when the high-energy ignition systems came out. It can help insulate the connector and, in particular on a motorcycle where it can get wet, it waterproofs the spark plug boot. And, because it is silicone, it is fairly stable at high temperatures and won't affect the rubber and plastics.

So why would you put an insulator on a connector? The idea is that you use a thin layer. When you push the connector together the grease is pushed out of the way enough to get a connection and the surrounding grease then keeps out water and oxygen. The connector will be protected from the environment and less likely to corrode. Plus, the silicone is safe for the plastics and PVC insulation.

That sounds good, so far; so why not smear it on everything? Well there are a number of good reasons.

First, silicone grease outgases constantly. If the silicone gas gets near a connector or a contact, such as a relay, and there is a spark, the spark at the contact can create silicon dioxide. Some people even suggest that the silicone gas from dielectric grease can travel many feet through the unsulation on a wire and damage a contact on the other end. Omron states that even their sealed switches can be damaged by nearby silicone grease outgassing. Reference the following links for more info:

http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/en-d2vw.pdf

http://machinedesign.com/article/lubricating-electrical-switches-1025

Second, it is an insulator. It can prevent contacts from touching. If you do use it, use a very thin layer.

Third, if you have a corroded connection, silicone grease will not help. In fact, it may make it worse. It can never improve anything. Dielectric grease will never make a poor connection better.

Fourth, it attracts dust and dirt and it hardens over time. This means that if you smear a lot of silicone grease on connectors you may see nearby relays, switches, or points fail later on. Since silicone grease does nothing at all to improve the connection and, in fact, may insulate the contacts in the connector increasing the resistance the connector may still fail.

So what do you do? Look for a contact enhancer/lube. While most contact cleaners are simple solvents that just wash the connector off there are contact enhancers that deoxidize the contact surface and actually work to lower the contact resistance (make a better connection). Most contact enhancers leave a lubricant behind that protects the metal and continue to deoxidize the metal and improve the connection. They can work to lower the resistance and make a better contact as time goes by. The best you can hope for from dielectric grease is that it seals it enough to not get worse. I have used Caig Deoxit on my bikes for a few years now. I first found out about this on my job when I had to correct an issue in a connector system that could not tolerate even 5 thousandths of an ohm of resistance drift. We had a connector in the field that had been improperly plated and was starting to drift, mostly in warm humid areas like Florida. Our testing showed that the Caig Deoxit could be a good long-term fix. We ended up using the Deoxit to stabilize the bad units until we could get corrected wiring harnesses built with the correct connectors. We also put a layer of Deoxit on the new parts to protect and keep them clean over their lifetime. This solved the drift issue that we had.

I still use a small amount of silicone grease on my spark plug caps. It helps to waterproof them and makes it easier to pull the cap off, but I use it in very small amounts and never near a relay or switch.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline Accolay

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2011, 03:27:02 PM »
I guess I'm wondering how much out-gassing will be a problem with the small amount of silicone put on connectors?

I want more data.
1977 CB550F

Offline TwoTired

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2011, 04:08:23 PM »
I've done a lot of engineering analysis and testing of connectors/connections in my career.
First some basics:
A contact should have low electrical resistance. The contact area must have sufficient cross section to carry the required current without heating, and this usually obviates the concern over voltage/signal losses across the contacts.

For reliability, the connector should maintain its properties beyond the number of mating cycles expected during the product life.

Sliding connectors such as found on the SOHC4 create a wiping action during insertion.  Minor foreign matter on the contacts is thus wiped away during the "make" connection.  Because of this, silicone grease works well despite it's inability to aid conduction.

The contact material plays a major role in both the resistance and longevity of the connection.  Noble metals are generally the best conductors, and the best of these don't oxidize (changing it's electrical parameters).  However, Noble metals are expensive particularly the longest lasting and least likely to corrode; Gold.  High quality contacts or connectors frequently employ gold plating to gain long lasting connectivity.  The plating thickness generally varies with a mating cycle specification, as the wiping action wears off the gold plate eventually.

The terminal's base metal often provides the spring tension required for contact pressure (lowers resistivity) and retention, to keep the connection "made".

Honda did NOT gold plate any connections.  I'm pretty sure they used tin, which when new works nearly as well a gold for contact duty.  However, tin can be attacked by strong acids, alkalis, and acid salts, all of which exist in tiny quantities suspended in the atmosphere.  Over time, the tin converts to a material that has far worse electrical characteristics than the original tin has.  Further, since the contact surface is not gas tight, the connection develop higher resistance over timed exposure to the atmosphere, washing soap and high pressure sprayers.  Further, I don't believe Honda planed for 30 year life of the electrical connectors and did not wish to increase the purchase price of the machine due to using gold plated connectors.  The average consumer simply would not understand the benefit.  And, the amount of original owners operating the bike 30 years after purchase is a pretty small populace.

Also, worth mentioning is the retentive force between contacts that can reduce with vibration and fatigue, making the contact pressure less and thus connection resistance higher.

To restore the connector contact to near original condition, the contacts need be cleaned/polished where the wiping action takes place.  The springy portion of the contact should be reformed to restore high contact pressure.  And the terminal coated with something that prevents the impurities in the atmosphere from attacking the contact plating.  Dielectric grease will do this fine, the more viscous and harder to dislodge the better.  

I have used the Deoxit products and they work well for slight oxidation of the plating.  They also leave a very thin coat of protectant, to help prevent corrosion.  These work fine indoors which already has some protection from the elements.  In our motorcycles, I expect it to extend electrical life about one year, when the treatment will need renewing, as the coat left behind is very thin and not persistent throughout time.

Thicker dielectric grease stays for a pretty long time unless washed away by pressure washers or other high pressure spray.  If you apply it right to prevent gasses from getting to the contact area, as well as fill the connector socket, the only exposed grease that collects dirt is also where the most insulation is located.  And coating the insulation with dirt does not effect the electrical function of the current carrying components.

For the SOHC4, clean the contacts, reform the socket for best retention.  Round male contacts are best mated with round sockets rather than oval or flat.  This takes care of the immediate electrical concerns.  For a reduction in contact maintenance intervals, the metals should be protected from atmosphere by a coating.  Grease will be pushed aside during the mating process, whether it is the thicker Dielectric grease or the thin residue left by Deoxit.  A thicker coating will usually provide a longer interval between maintenance action.  But, of course, pressure sprays can change the required interval.

If you insist on a very thin coating, then Deoxit is a just as good as "dielectric grease", but plan to do the connector cleaning ritual far more often.
I should point out that if you use the DOW High vacuum grease, it will NOT harden, and never outgases.  This grease maintains it's chemical integrity a long time.  I want to say forever, but I've only tested it for 30 years.  It's the same grease used in the SOHC4 caliper to keep water away from the inside metals behind the pucks.
I expect there are several formulations of "dielectric grease" depending on the manufacturer.  And, they should be selected for properties compatible with the task at hand.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline lone*X

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2011, 04:20:58 PM »
I have used dielectric grease for at least 40 years and never saw it actually cause corrosion or a connection failure.  Just the opposite, it has kept contacts clean and corrosion free which is what it is intended for.  I personally was never under the impression it was a conductor or contact enhancer of any kind.  Maybe some were.  I use No-Lox for a conductive cream if one is needed.  It is used to ensure a good contact and prevents erosion in bi-metal connections like aluminum wire to copper connectors.  
Lone*X  ( Don )

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Offline Bodi

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2011, 04:53:51 PM »
Here's someone trying to sell a product costing lots more than dielectric grease. So he claims the grease is no good.
Capitalism at its finest.
I've seen dielectric grease gooped into automotive connectors to seal out moisture for the last 20 years or so. I doubt if Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Mercedes, etc. would use it if it caused problems...

Offline flybox1

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2011, 07:57:01 PM »
once again you guys come thru and make sense of it all.  thank you for taking time to educate.  :)
I brought this up only because recently i've experienced some issues with my 350F's electrical system...the majority soon after a major cleaning and re-greasing my (in pretty decent shape) bullets and connectors.
just wondering if i had overdone it with the dielectric grease.
now back to finding the short.... >:(
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline SohRon

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2011, 09:43:08 PM »
Beware of grease on contacts. This is what I found after purchasing this electrical panel on eBay:


I tested this out by cleaning the rectifier connector (far right - the connector on the rectifier itself was just as nasty). The conductors were badly pitted but I managed to clean them up fairly well... still not sure this panel is going to work (or stay working if it does). I may have to resort to replacing the conductors before I can feel certain about this panel.

Unless you live by the ocean, I just don't understnd why people think they need this...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 10:18:56 PM by SohRon »
"He slipped back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl..."

Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2011, 10:14:36 PM »
Unless you live by the ocean, I just don't understand why people think they need this...
I guess you didn't read/understand/believe my post above.

The grease blocks corrosive effects from the atmosphere over time.  Cleaning makes them work today.  Grease keeps them working like when just cleaned for many many years to come.  Leave the grease off and you'll have to clean them again in a much shorter period of time.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline SohRon

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2011, 10:23:08 PM »
Of course, I live in a state where 35% humidity is sweltering!  ;D   I just believe that, unless properly done, it tends to end up looking like the picture above... and this is certainly not the only set of connectors I've seen like this. If this grease was meant to keep these connectors clean for "many years", I'd say it's woefully failed its mission...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 10:47:02 PM by SohRon »
"He slipped back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl..."

Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

Offline TwoTired

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2011, 01:28:16 AM »
Of course, I live in a state where 35% humidity is sweltering!  ;D   I just believe that, unless properly done, it tends to end up looking like the picture above... and this is certainly not the only set of connectors I've seen like this. If this grease was meant to keep these connectors clean for "many years", I'd say it's woefully failed its mission...

Would you say the grease was applied so as to prevent air contact with all the metal of the terminals?

Do you know what kind of grease it was?

I'm not familiar with green dielectric grease.  Were the brass terminals covered in verdigris? 
The copper in brass turns green when acids attack it.  Hard to imagine a dielectric grease being produced with acidic properties.

I agree that you posted a gory picture.  But, there is rust on the solenoid nuts, indicating far more than 35% humidity was present at some time.  Did it come from an area with acid rain problems?  How do you know the terminals were clean when the grease was applied?  Couldn't it be that the grease was applied after the corrosion was present?  Might it be the case that the corrosion was arrested after applying the grease?  The grease won't remove corrosion.  But, it can encapsulate it and curtail or retard its advancement.

Better living through chemistry.   ;D

Regarding that panel, carefully check the terminal to wire connections.  If the contacts were corroded, so would the wires be, too.  Unfortunately, Honda didn't coat the bare metals when new, and exposure/abuse takes it's toll.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline SohRon

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2011, 05:38:01 AM »
TT, Don't know what kind of grease was used, but the grease itself (or through electrolysis) has attacked the terminals and what you're looking at is corrosion of the copper in the brass conductor. If you look carefully, you can see the untarnished grease in those areas on the connectors where there are no terminals.

As I said, this isn't the only set of connectors that I've like this, and they have come from many different areas. So, the grease is either attacking the conductors because of the wrong grease being applied, too much being applied, or some kind of maintainance problem with the PO. Whatever happened, the excersize failed.

Here in Colorado, you can pull a switch off of a bike that's sat for thirty years "in a field" and the connectors will still look relatively good... in fact a quick scrub with some steel wool shines them right up, so I have always been puzzled by this practice. Always seemed just a little anal to me, but what do I know?   ;D

The wiring itself looks and tests good. I'm more concerned that the conductors will build up resistance over time with the pitting involved. Like I said, most likely I'll have to replace the conductors.

I would never presume to be an expert; I freely admit I know next to nothing.  But there were a couple of posts that seemed to indicate that there were no problems associated with this practice and I just wanted to give folks a heads up that that wasn't necessarily the case.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 06:59:52 AM by SohRon »
"He slipped back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl..."

Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

Offline flybox1

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2011, 07:52:24 AM »
Do you know what kind of grease it was?
I'm not familiar with green dielectric grease. 

smell it...it looks like it could be vicks vapo-rub!  ;)
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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Offline Accolay

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2011, 08:21:22 AM »
I'd say they applied grease to your terminals //after// there had been some major corrosion.
1977 CB550F

Offline Bodi

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2011, 08:31:50 AM »
I doubt that this is dielectric grease. I've never seen it do anything like that, and we get salt spray in the winter. Copper terminals that are unprotected get that green grunge on them.
The automotive applications I've seen usually have the grease in a connector that also has a mechanical seal. Whether this is to keep the grease in or keep the air out, I dunno. I've also seen grease applied to a connector block similar to what you picture.
We used it on mil spec circular connectors in a MARS (marine atmospheric reporting station) system I worked on maybe 40 years ago too. This automatic weather station was to be set on bouys and on coasts, recording weather data and transmitting it daily by phone or radio. I doubt if a more corrosive location is possible, excepting underneath a vehicle in an Ontario winter. These connectors were sealed with rubber to the cables and had the goop on the connector pins and sockets.
Anyway my experience with it has been positive. Not using it is fine, Honda did on these bikes... and the connections lasted for decades.

Offline SohRon

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2011, 08:44:44 AM »
smell it...it looks like it could be vicks vapo-rub!  

 :D :D  Or maybe KY...

It appears to be a silicon-based dielectric grease similar to what I got from the auto parts store. I'm not sure how to test it.


I'd say they applied grease to your terminals //after// there had been some major corrosion

Maybe in an effort to stop further corrosion, and it back-fired

Not using it is fine, Honda did on these bikes... and the connections lasted for decades.

I don't think any of the major manufacturers grease their connectors, but that's just a guess. I know that Harley could easily have done this, but instead spent the time and effort to engineer O-ring connectors when connection problems arose.

I'm not trying to second guess TwoTired because when he speaks, it's a good idea to sit up and pay attention. If you do this to your bike, I'd read his post and follow it word for word; otherwise you might get something that ends up looking like this photo...
"He slipped back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl..."

Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

Offline TwoTired

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2011, 11:54:26 AM »
TT, Don't know what kind of grease was used, but the grease itself (or through electrolysis) has attacked the terminals and what you're looking at is corrosion of the copper in the brass conductor. If you look carefully, you can see the untarnished grease in those areas on the connectors where there are no terminals.

The electrolysis comment is a very good point.  A water film which bridges between a terminal that has voltage and a return to Batt Neg behaves as electrolyte, particularly if the water has impurities in in it.  With such an occurrence, galvanic corrosion takes place, where ions from the anodic terminal and the cathodic contact points do an exchange, the results of which is a chemical conversion of the two dissimilar metals.
Referring to you posted picture, I can see what appears to be an ample amount of salts deposited on the mount plate.  Also notice the solenoid terminals.  The rusty one is where the battery positive cable attached and would have a charge potential whenever the battery held a charge potential.  The plate is often attached to the battery negative.  Or, many of the electrical contacts in the connectors provide returns to battery negative.  Add electrolyte between two dissimilar metals with opposite electrical potential, and galvanic corrosion occurs.  If the bike was operated with a wet film interconnecting all the electrically polarized components, corrosion is guaranteed.
In fact, this may be the best argument FOR putting dielectric grease on the terminals.  I rather wish Honda HAD put it on there at the factory, as the electrical bits in the bike would be in MUCH better condition today.

I don't believe, and I can find no credible argument, to assume the grease has attacked the terminals.  It was almost certainly put on there after the fact, and arrested further damage from corrosion.  The grease then absorbed the copper oxide leached out of the brass plated terminals.

As I said, this isn't the only set of connectors that I've like this, and they have come from many different areas. So, the grease is either attacking the conductors because of the wrong grease being applied, too much being applied, or some kind of maintainance problem with the PO. Whatever happened, the excersize failed.

Wait a minute.  Such conclusions are really conjecture aren't they?
If I go to a motorcycle junk yard and see 10 bikes with front end damage, is it reasonable to assume they were all caused by brake failure?

Clearly, the example you pictured shows an end failure condition.  But, there is no evidence or science to support grease being the cause.
The "exercise failed" diagnosis includes the entire life experience of the pictured components with no time line marker as to when the grease was applied.  How can a reasonable, substantive diagnosis be formulated under those conditions?

The corrosion chemistry and methodology have been well studied and are known.  There is nothing in dielectric grease that promotes contact corrosion.  In fact, it is the non-chemically active grease that provides a separation barrier, between the susceptible components, and the impurites of the the air and water which would otherwise come into contact with those metals.

It's been an interesting conversation.  But, I am going to have to reject the notion that the picture provided demonstrates any negative effect of dielectric grease.  It certainly shows evidence of neglect and or abuse, as well as a lack of understanding about what dielectric grease does and and how it should be used.

I'd say they applied grease to your terminals //after// there had been some major corrosion.
I concur.

Anyway my experience with it has been positive. Not using it (dielectric grease) is fine, Honda did on these bikes... and the connections lasted for decades.
Which was fine for Honda Marketing practices.  No one ever expected (or wanted) them to last for 50 years.  I maintain that many of the electrical issues dealt with in this forum, stem from corrosion of exposed metals in the electrical system that a dielectric grease could have prevented or at least delayed.


I'd say they applied grease to your terminals //after// there had been some major corrosion

Maybe in an effort to stop further corrosion, and it back-fired
There is no substantive evidence to support that conclusion.  Neither is there a supportable argument from a chemistry science standpoint.

Not using it is fine, Honda did on these bikes... and the connections lasted for decades.

I don't think any of the major manufacturers grease their connectors, but that's just a guess. I know that Harley could easily have done this, but instead spent the time and effort to engineer O-ring connectors when connection problems arose.

I noticed on my 89 Camaro, that GM is using rubber sealed electrical connectors AND dielectric grease inside them, flooding the contacts.

Below, I've attached another electrical panel photo below (purchased on ebay with some other parts I needed, the Vreg was good!).  I have no knowledge of its service history.  But, it can't be newer than 1978.
Notice, it has no dielectric grease on the connectors, yet some of the terminals are showing some green and none of the terminals show the bright shiny brass color they did when new.

So from this picture:
What part of the terminal's condition is caused by the black over spray among the components?
Could the over sprayed paint have been the cause of the fuse terminal holder melting?
Could the over spray be the cause of the plastic connector crumbling?
Did the over spray cause the terminals to go dull and oxidized?

Is this a photo of the dangers of over spray?
Is this a photo showing the benefits of not using dielectric grease?


Can you find the nonsense in this post?   ;D ;D ;D


Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Achmed

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2011, 07:11:25 PM »
Lord have mercy, TwoTired, you are a windbag! But I enjoy reading your posts. Argh what does that say about me?

I think the collected sayings about dielectric grease and also the pros and cons of soldering vs. mechanical connectors should be posted in the electrical FAQ.

Next you're going to explain the merits of the scientific method, I presume? Perhaps follow up with its intended applications?

Have you ever heard the saying, 'all electrical failures are ultimately mechanical failures'? It always resonated with me, but like all truisms it isn't really true across the board is it?

Regards,
Achmed

Offline SohRon

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2011, 07:28:28 PM »
Wow! Looks like I must have touched on a pet practice here! TT, I'm not going to try to debate with you 'cause you would eat me for breakfast!  ;D   If you say this wasn't caused by the grease, then all I can do is bow to your superior knowledge. But something went wrong here, and the grease at least appears to be holding the smoking gun. Neither one of us knows exacly what caused this to happen; so to say the grease wasn't the culprit is just as speculative as saying it was without "difinitive investigation" (there's yer "scientific method" for ya'   :D ), IMHO. I think what we really need here is to determine what happened so others can avoid the same fate, which is why I joined the conversation originally  ;D
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 07:35:03 PM by SohRon »
"He slipped back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl..."

Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

Offline TwoTired

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2011, 09:48:08 PM »
Lord have mercy, TwoTired, you are a windbag!
Ahem, I prefer "verbose".  ;)

But I enjoy reading your posts. Argh what does that say about me?
Gotta be something related to boredom.....  ;D

Next you're going to explain the merits of the scientific method, I presume?
I *could*.  But those who favor religion and foregone conclusions based on refutable data would get upset.

Have you ever heard the saying, 'all electrical failures are ultimately mechanical failures'? It always resonated with me, but like all truisms it isn't really true across the board is it?
Yes to the former.   And, it is certainly true in the context of motorcycles.  In the vastness of the electrical realm, motorcycles (particularly SOHC4s) are quite simple and straightforward, obeying strictly to the laws of rudimentary physics.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2011, 11:13:29 PM »
Wow! Looks like I must have touched on a pet practice here! TT, I'm not going to try to debate with you 'cause you would eat me for breakfast!  ;D  
Rest easy, I have no desire to practice cannibalism.   ;D
Anyway, I'm just trying to stifle misinformation, and perhaps spread some knowledge.

If you say this wasn't caused by the grease, then all I can do is bow to your superior knowledge.
I can identify no known mechanism or chemical trait whereby dielectric grease corrodes metal.  Can you?
Try it yourself.  Submerge a brand new terminal in some dielectric grease.  Let us know when you notice corrosion on the terminal.  If we are still alive, we will thank you.  ;)

But something went wrong here, and the grease at least appears to be holding the smoking gun.
I'm kind of astonished about you hanging on to that notion.  :-\
If you walked into a room and observed a dead, bleeding body next to a quadriplegic with a smoking gun in his hand, will you assume the quadriplegic is guilty of murder?

Neither one of us knows exacly what caused this to happen; so to say the grease wasn't the culprit is just as speculative as saying it was without "difinitive investigation" (there's yer "scientific method" for ya'   :D ), IMHO.
And, that is the difference.  You seem to favor personal beliefs and associative condemnation, over known chemical the physical properties of the materials in question.   Material properties are a science, not a religion!

I think what we really need here is to determine what happened so others can avoid the same fate, which is why I joined the conversation originally  ;D
Well then, I gotta ask.  Have we learned what causes corrosion when inert grease is NOT involved?  Will you do the materials compatibility test described above?  Lot's of other have done the test in the real world with great success.  What will prove it to you?

It is hard for me to imagine an engineer or skilled technician that doesn't have a firm grasp of basic material properties.  We are surrounded by a plethora of materials, some of which work well with others and some that do not.  Choosing the best ones for the application is a skill based on knowledge of materials.

Check out the MSDS of products marketed as dielectric grease.  I looked at 4 or 5 brands, and found no indication they were in any way reactive with metals.  Please relay any data for any brand of dielectric grease you find with reactive behavior towards metals. (I couldn't find any.)
Typical example:
http://www.imperialinc.com/msds0075500.shtml
PH - not applicable.
(This would have been a chemical property indicating how fast it reacts with other materials.  Other MSDS samples stated - neutral pH, meaning non-reactive.)
10. Stability and Reactivity

Chemical Stability
Stable

Materials to Avoid / Incompatibilities
Strong acids, bases and strong oxidizers.

Conditions to Avoid
None known


I hope that prospective users of dielectric grease are not dissuaded from its use by anecdotal photos of abused electrical components with unknown history or cause for items in poor condition.  The mere presence of grease (or baked beans) on damaged components is not a proof, in my mind.

It occurs to me that modern advertising uses similar techniques to either attract or repel prospective buyers.  It's called associative marketing.
Associate your product with something popular, wholesome, or exciting to increase attraction/sales.
Associate your competitor products with something distasteful, decrepit, or dull to repel those buyers from their product.
In neither case does it matter what the actual merits of the product actually are.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline KeithB

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2011, 05:14:28 AM »
TT might be a wind...er...I mean verbose, but at least he takes the time to back up what he says with some due consideration rather than posting some bull#$%* with no explanation.
By bull#$%*, I am not referring to this thread specifically but just making a general observation from what I read on a number of sites.

I have found myself with fingers poised over the keyboard ready to compose a detailed explanation of something and just moved on 'cause I figure it fall (mostly) on deaf ears.

Thanks TT
Nanahan Man

Offline SohRon

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2011, 06:39:40 AM »
TT, the last thing in the world I want to do is spread misinformation. Thanks for clearing this up for me.
"He slipped back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl..."

Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

Offline MRieck

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2011, 09:44:14 AM »
If you don't use dielectric grease on the Dyna or Taylor suppression wires the boots literally weld themselves to the plugs.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

bollingball

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2011, 11:01:33 AM »
TT This is for you. How about using the Dioxit on the terminals put connectors back together then packthe ends with dielectric. Think there would be any problems

Offline TwoTired

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Re: dielectric grease -vs- contact enhancer/protectant
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2011, 12:44:45 PM »
TT This is for you. How about using the Dioxit on the terminals put connectors back together then packthe ends with dielectric. Think there would be any problems
Deoxit is a Brand name/Trade name covering a range of products, not all of which have cleaning properties.
The ones that do contain cleaning characteristics, list the active ingredient as D100L.  And, the MSDS states that it's chemical make up is a trade secret.  So, we can't determine the actual chemical reaction they may (or may not) take place.

I originally used it for audio/visual applications (noisy connectors).  It helped quiet them down and extended their (still quiet duration).  But, this application revolves around very small voltages and currents where tiny resistance changes make a very big difference.

Applicability to the SOHC4:
As a restorative, I remain dubious as to it's merits.  If the terminals are already clean/new it ought to help keep them so.

I took an old Honda Harness out of my junk bin.  I selected a bullet connector where the plating had turned dull and dark gray.  I then sprayed Deoxit D5 on the terminal, soaking it.  Apart from it being wet, I saw no physical change.  I waited a minute for the "active ingredient" to do its thing, then wiped off the terminal with a clean, white paper towel.  The terminal looked the same as before, and there was no visible residue on the paper towel to indicate the treatment removed or changed anything on the bullet terminal.

The Deoxit directions say to cycle the mating connections to remove the oxides, making me wonder just what role the spray plays in removing the oxidation (if any)?  So, I must question the claimed "cleaning ability", as I can't observe any effect on its own merit alone.

It has an aliphatic Hydrocarbon in the contents listing, which I think is the film residue it leaves behind to block atmospheric pollutants from accelerating the contact/terminal degradation.

The sales site lists a special product :
DeoxIT® Shield S-Series - Contact Protector, for severe environments.
It is not a cleaner though, only a preserver.
http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.192/.f

Personally, as a "miracle spray" to cure/reverse deterioration problems of connectors on the SOHC4, I think it fails miserably.

If you first mechanically clean off the oxides/corrosion from the terminals, Deoxit will help extend the service life to some extent.  However, I speculate that engine oil (or WD 40) may provide a similar benefit when used on a SOHC4 wiring connections.
The real goal is to keep atmosphere and water away from the terminal contacts.  If you can do that with an extra barrier such as dielectric grease, that should help.  But, why use two products when one will do the job?

Deoxit is for "light duty" such as devices used indoors which have a building as the first line of protection from the elements.
A bike, on the other hand is frequently exposed to outside elements.  I have doubts that the light film left by Deoxit, will last very long there, certainly not as long as dielectric grease.

IMO

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.