Author Topic: Low RPM clicking???  (Read 4563 times)

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Offline Lumbee

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Low RPM clicking???
« on: March 28, 2006, 08:40:02 AM »
...I just brought a 77 750F back to life the last few months.  Finally got the carbs cleaned (3rd time is a charm  8) ) and starting to put a few mines on it.  I put new oil in it, and set the valves this past weekend, however I'm getting some disconcerting noise from the head at low RPMs.  It happens like this.  If I'm accelerating, and I start from a higher gear, so I'm around 2K rpm, and get on the throttle, for a few seconds I hear was sounds like valve lash (clicking sounds) coming from the head.  With in a second or 2 as the RPMs increase the noise goes away.  As I said I adjusted the valves, so I'm fairly confident they are set correctly.  Any ideas on what this is? 

This bike is to be my "cruiser", and I've got the barn door windjammer farring on the front, so I'm hoping the clicking is just some of the harware up front thats banging against something, though I can't find anything that is loose.

...any ideas or comments appreciated...
« Last Edit: March 28, 2006, 08:42:31 AM by The great "Lumbee" »
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Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2006, 08:58:41 AM »
If you are in a high gear and load up the engine - this couldn't be pinking / pre-ignition / detonation (delete depending upon location)  could it?

Timing out or crap fuel (?)
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Offline hcritz

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2006, 09:04:15 AM »
Yep...sounds like pre-ignition...
Try a tank of premium...gas ain't what it used to be in 1977!

eldar

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2006, 09:16:48 AM »
You should not need premium. It is a waste. these bikes, if they are stock, will not gain anything using premium. However, if you try it and the ping goes away, you know your timing is off.

Offline Lumbee

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2006, 09:22:52 AM »
...pre-ignition??  ...not familiar with the term/concept...someone give me a quick primer...  :-\

...and just so you know, the bike doesn't cut out or seem to run bad at the lower RPM's...just the clicking...no bogging down...
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Offline hcritz

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2006, 09:31:37 AM »
Pre-ignition is when the fuel burns too quickly...explodes instead of burns...causing a knock...can be caused by timing set too high...fuel with too low an octane...even a hot spot in the combustion chamber (carbon deposits etc.) If it is excessive it can damage the engine. Modern cars actually have knock sensors (little microphones) that listen for pinging and electronically adjust timing accordingly...some are sophisticated enough to do it per cylinder.
I was just looking at the 77 manual it says use a pump octane of 86 or higher...and that unleaded fuel is NOT recommended!
Well...not much we can do about the no lead!
If you try a tank of premium and the rattle goes away...check the timing.
I just use premium...for the small amount of fuel that it uses...really doesn't cost much in the whole scheme of things and usually they have better additives for keeping things clean...


eldar

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2006, 09:53:07 AM »
The higher octane fuels create more heat during their burn process. This has been one of those topics that has beaten so much it is past dead. Kinda like the "what oil do you use" topic.

Offline my78k

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2006, 10:04:01 AM »
Could using either too cold or too hot of a spark plug contribute to this? Or would that be felt at all RPM ranges...

eldar

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2006, 10:21:02 AM »
maybe too cold of a plug but I dont think so. Never seen that happen anyways.

Offline hcritz

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2006, 10:32:08 AM »
I doubt that a cold plug would...and if it's in the recommended heat range for the engine...probably not.
With aircooled car engines some interesting things can happen...If you get a spark plug that extends too far into the combustion chamber...one or two too many thread...or not using the washer on the plug...it can cause a hot spot and cause pre-ignition.
I'll have to read up on the higher temps on premium fuel burns...except at high throttle settings I don't think it would make much difference...there are a lot of issues with flame speed and shape etc.
I have an EGT (exhaust gas Temp) sensor and a cyl. head temp on my air cooled sypder...it's similar in compression etc...
would be interesting to see what those gauges show with a tank of reg vs prem. It is definitely more prone to pinging with regular!
It was designed to be run on leaded fuel as well...so it's a bit octane sensitive...of course when these bikes were built...octane ratings for most premium was a lot higher...The Spyder's owner's manual says use 100 octane...Yeah Right!!!


eldar

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2006, 10:37:23 AM »
some engine do require the higher octane but wehave low enough comp that unless you use an 836 kit, you should not need it as long as everything  is tuned right. No I think his ping is mechanical. maybe adjust the cam chain and then recheck the valves lash.

Offline Lumbee

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2006, 10:51:34 AM »
...def sounds mechanical to me.  I've already adjusted the cam chain, and I know the valves are set, however I'v only statically adjusted the timing.  Sounds like a good excuse to finally get that timing light!!!   ;D
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Offline my78k

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2006, 11:02:37 AM »
See that's part of the reason I am always broke...I don't wait for an excuse to buy tools  ;D

Offline hcritz

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2006, 11:05:23 AM »
Yep...hard to diagnose a noise from a post!<G>  But under load...sounds like pre-ignition.
Be a good idea to recheck alll the tuneup stuff...a lean carb could also contribute as well.
Not sure with my helmet on I could hear pinging???

Being an engineer and a Geek....you have me interested in the burn temps with different octanes...logically the better control burn of higer octane would give a cooler burn...but there are lots of other factors too.
I notice the compression ratio of the stock motor is 9.2/1 not exactly low for a non-injected/non-computer controlled engine. + the higer temps that aircooled ones run...also the typical RPM that these engines run at hwy speeds it higher than most...
So...my interest if peaked!

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2006, 11:08:01 AM »
Quote
Yep...hard to diagnose a noise from a post!<

Along these lines, some digital cams allow you to capture a few seconds of sound. Any chance you could to that and post it?
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Offline Lumbee

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2006, 11:14:31 AM »
Quote
Not sure with my helmet on I could hear pinging???

...noticed the noise when I was wearing my "novelty" chopper helmet, so nothing over my ears...

Quote
some digital cams allow you to capture a few seconds of sound. Any chance you could to that and post it?

...I've been meaning to check this out...my dig. camera does movies...but not sure if it has sound or not.  Either way, I'd need to be driving it to make it happen...might be hard to juggle the throttle and holding the camera close to the head at the same time.  But hey...I'll check my camera out, if it does sound I might give it a whirl...
« Last Edit: March 28, 2006, 11:16:14 AM by The great "Lumbee" »
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2006, 11:17:58 AM »
Quote
might be hard to juggle the throttle and holding the camer close to the head at the same time

Scratch that idea, we would rather have you still be around trying to figure it out.  ;)
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

eldar

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2006, 11:18:47 AM »
any chance it could be points making noise? I would not htink so but saome claim to like the sound of points ???

Offline cben750f0

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2006, 11:20:21 AM »
i know for a fact that the big bore kits will ping like a bastard, if you have the timeing even slightly out... so i would get a light and double check that.... just a though... you dont happen to have a valve with a rocker gap slightly too big?... i know when i was getting uses to setting the valves that i set one maybe a 1/2 a thou too big.... that made a racket also.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2006, 11:42:31 AM »
I have had the same sound on steep hills in too high a gear. It is detonation from applying load in too high a gearat too low and RPM. These motors fool you into not shifting down at proper times since they never seem to complain much.     
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Offline hcritz

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2006, 12:04:59 PM »
Good Point Bobby...seems these engines like to rev...
Still hurts me to see the tach at 5000 rpm for any distance!<G>

eldar

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2006, 12:15:47 PM »
I know, I hate being at high rpm in town! drives me nuts!

Offline crazypj

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2006, 04:17:48 PM »
Check the ATD isnt stuck at full advance. Check the advancer springs are not broken. they may be allowing full advance too soon if they are weak.need a timing light to verify.
 BTW race fuel burns slower. Only creates more heat if you get more air with it or higher compression or both. all gasoline has about 19,000 btu/***/*** energy, ( forgot the next bit)
I'll have to look up specs now I started on this
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2006, 07:17:19 PM »
If I read the post properly he was coming off 2K Rpm and accelerating quickly. I personally do not like revs myself. I keep my motor around 3K around Town. I want some engine braking for control and the ability to get on it quickly to avoid idiots.  3K is where the real power band begins. These bikes don't buck like cars for some reason so you find yourself getting up into higher gears without thinking.  Hell, with the price of gas I may take up coasting.
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Offline kpier883

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2006, 08:15:48 PM »
Could be valves pinging.  My 82 KZ1000 used to do that with the fairing installed but not without it.  The timing was set too far advanced (though correct by the manual) for the extra drag.  At higher rpm the problem was not present.  A passenger always made this condition worse on that bike.
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Offline quietlikeachurch

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2006, 11:45:58 PM »
This might be way out there but when I switched helmets on my bike I was scared to the bone.  Once you get used to the engine sounds inside one helmet any other helmet makes the bike sound a little bit different.  I rode mine hard for about two years inside a full-face and then switched to a half-helmet and started to notice alot of crazy clicks/clacks/etc., that I had never heard before.  After checking the valve clearances and timing, and trying out all octanes in case of "pinging" (and re-syncing the carbs about 6 times), I realized that I was just hearing alot more valve clatter and intake noise than before.  After a few years of flawless running (in less-than optimal conditions) the engine is the last thing I expect to break down.  Unless I hear severe CLACKING or see my oil light, it's fine.  These engines don't have their "bulletproof" reputation for nothing.

-Ian

P.S. - "hcritz"... - Don't be afraid of revs; yesterday I rode 250 miles with the engine at 5K-6K most of the time, and it seems to be running smoother than ever!  Is that a Porsche Spyder or a Corvair Spyder??
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2006, 12:05:09 AM »
Pinging due to incorrect ignition timing is probably the culprit, but, well, it's an F2, so it could be a number of things specific to the beautiful, but fragile nature of the model.

One of the F2/F3's problems was loose valve guides moving in the head casting, or excessive wear of the valve/valve guide,  mushooming of the valve stem tips, and of course the biggie was premature cam chain and tensioner failure due to the added stresses on the valve train brought about the "lumpier" camshaft and much stiffer springs. In all, noises from the cylinder head on an F2 are common, and eventually will prove fatal.

BTW, no one mentioned the possibility of piston slap under load, another common problem, particularly on high mileage bikes, where someone has fitted new rings onto worn pistons, in worn cylinders. It may not blow smoke, and the compression can be within specs, but that won't stop the pistons from rattling around inside the cylinders under load, particularly when the engine is still cool. Cheers, Terry. ;D 
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2006, 01:18:01 AM »
Seems to me and engine that is pinging will show very light color spark plug deposits, and possibly a white center electrode insulator. Combustion temps will be high and should, at least, keep the plugs very clean.  Possibly the outer ring won't have the desired blackness, either.

It is common for many people used to autos that cruise at low RPMs in overdrive (making about 10-20HP in cruise), to be uncomfortable using smaller displacement engines in a Higher RPM mode.  One symptom is that people "lug" the motors, asking for max power and torque well below an RPM that the camshaft profile works efficiently.  Many auto engines rarely operate above 4500 RPM.  And, their cams are profiled to supply best power and/or torque below that RPM. Those engines have no hope of operating at 9000 RPM with their current cams and valve train.  Conversely the cam in the SOHC4 is optimized to achieve best power in the upper half of the RPM range.  The result is relatively poor volumetric efficiency at lower RPMs.  Simply twisting the throttle at low RPM is lugging the engine until you get into the upper 2/3rds of the RPM range when the cam begins to operate in an efficient manner for this engine's breathing characteristics.  With these engines you aren't being kind to them by keeping their RPMs low.  They were designed to be Reved up and operate better, with less strain on them in the upper RPM bands.  If the noise that the SOHC4 makes upsets you, perhaps a quieter intake and exhaust setup would be more to your liking.  Or, even another choice of motorcycles that are designed to cruise at low RPMs.
 Lugging the engine, particularly with lean mixtures or glowing embers in the combustion chamber, can lead to pinging and even detonation.  This can lead to some pretty severe premature mechanical wear.

Perhaps if you think about percentage of power it will help assuage the cringing effect the tach needle has on you?  The power band starts about 1/3 up from the range of the band. The Cb550, for example, has an 8000 RPM rev range From 1000 to 9200. 1/3 of that is 3700.  That's only 30% power.  And, come to think of it, 3500 is about the lowest I like to see on the tach while driving about in city traffic.  When I want response, 4000 and lower gears for even more Rs is what I like to see.  Cruising at 5000 is only 50% power or half capacity for the motor.  Heck, that's just loafing!

The cam grinds on these bikes are to make horsepower at higher RPMS. In doing so, they sacrifice torque at lower RPMS.  They are designed to be reved up and are happiest when they are doing what they are supposed to do.  None of my 550s have complained about this treatment.  Could the 750s be more dainty or fragile?  Seems unlikely.

As to the clicking noise, who knows what the printed word click means relative to an actual engine noise.  When I put the big Vetter on a Cb550 years ago, I investigated the new noises I heard until I took it back off and discovered the engine then sounded just like it did before the addition.  Engine noises were bouncing off the fairing right into my face in the quiet air pocket behind the windshield.  Still, I knew the plug conditions hadn't changed, the valves were set right, and the ign timing was spot on.  There's a lot of metal moving about at 4000 RPM.  Noises are going to happen.

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline byidesign

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2006, 06:24:41 AM »
Don't want to be out in left field here, felt the need to mention this one.
  Are you getting enough oil up to all the lobes,
    and rockers? I had one oil hole that started to plug up
    by#2 and I got ticking noises from it{first sign}{cam sometimes starts to
      change colour, or in bad cases turn blue}
      I  had to clean them out, maybe worth a visual check...
         Hope it helps
                 Bruce
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Offline hcritz

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2006, 06:33:49 AM »
Hey quiet...
Yeah...I know...just takes a while to get used to running that many rpm for distance...Bike doesn't seem to mind as much as I do!
Maybe I should just disconect the tach cable!<G>
Going to take my first long trip on the bike next weekend...about 300 miles each way...weather permitting...should be interesting!
As for Spyders...I have had one of each...still have my 64 vair...I've had it too long to part company...it has pretty reliably transported me for about 380,000 miles now...Really nice with the top down!!! The Vair is a lot more reliable and less fuss than the Porsche!
All it ask for is good fuel and frequent oil changes! The Porsche fell apart in record time...Why can't the Germans make decent plastic!


Offline Lumbee

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Re: Low RPM clicking???
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2006, 06:43:35 AM »
...bydesign...are you mad...certainly u'r not suggesting I pull the motor on the this beast!!!   ;D  Nah...I hear ya...isn't restricted oil flow always our worst fear?  In a prefect world anytime I get a new bike I'd pull the motor and check out the inerts...but in my world I usually ride for a season to gauge perfomace before deciding on what motor work I do.  For what its worth when I set the valve clearance, the insides of the caps looked oily.   :-\

...while Terry is right about the F2's and there poor valve guides, the bike only has 17K miles on it, so I'm hoping I can get another 10K before I started to worry about the thing swallowing a valve.  I had planned on riding it for the summer as is, then pulling the motor and cleaning up the top end in the Fall.
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