Topic: CB77F

[bill440cars]

                        A while back, I found this photo (that's in my avatar) of a CB77 with a 400F motor

         I was looking around for info and photos of the old Super Hawks and I don't remember
         
         exactly where I found it. that's all there was and I want more. Anyone out there have any
 
         input on this? It makes me wonder if it would be a safe build or not. I have always liked the

         CB77 and I wouldn't take one apart to do a conversion. If I ever didtry to build something

         like that, I would start with a mostly incomplete bike or just round up some parts and try it.

         Has any one seen this and/or know anything about it?  Later on, Bil 

[malcolmgb]

hi Bill, any chance of a bigger picture? sorry no info but I'm intrigued by it also.
I have found an engineering drawing of a 400F engine that someone has done if that is of any use to you.

[bill440cars]

     malcolmgb,       that's the only picture I have. I don't actually know how to post a picture that I
                     have and it looks that way no matter where it is. I don't understand why the whole
                     bike wasn't in the picture and I don't understand why there wasn't some kind of info
                     about it. I wonder about the extra weight on the frame, if there is some reinforcement
                     and where. As far as the engineering drawing goes, I appreciate it but, I don't really
                     need that. Thank you though. I've got an extra CB77 frame and an extra CB500K
                     engine----hmmmm. No, I guess I'd better not. Could be kind of like a smaller version of
                     the CBX minus 2 cylinders. Whoa! I'd better get out of here before I attempt to create
                     a Frankenbike! Later on, Bill

[SteveD CB500F]

Bill - you seem to have posted a screenshot as your avatar.

Assuming you have a JPG file on your PC, select "Additional Options" when posting and you can add the picture to your post.

It does look interesting - I don't think a 500 engine would fit though!

[bill440cars]

Well, if it worked, here's the photo. Bill






Well, apparently it didn't! One of these days, I'll get it right. Til then, bear with me.
                                          Later on, Bill

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Bob Wessner]

Bill,

File appears to be empty 

[SteveD CB500F]

This is a picture of a white bike in a snowstorm?

[bill440cars]

                                     Well, back to the drawing board. Bear with me guys, I know just enough
          about computers to be dangerous. I'll give it another try this afternoon. I gotta take care of
          some business this morning.  But, "I'll Be Back!"  Later on, Bill

[dusterdude]

                                     Well, back to the drawing board. Bear with me guys, I know just enough
          about computers to be dangerous. I'll give it another try this afternoon. I gotta take care of
          some business this morning.  But, "I'll Be Back!"  Later on, Bill

dangerous aint the word for it.

[Bob Wessner]

This is a picture of a white bike in a snowstorm?

Damn, my lack of imagination tripped me up yet again. 

[Bodi]

Since I have both bikes here, I had a look.
I don't see it. The CB77 engine is a stressed member of the frame; maybe a CL77 cradle frame would work?
The CB77 chain is on the right, so you'll need a new wheel and brake... or do some major work on the stock brake, flipping the wheel would mean a double-trailing brake - only slightly better than no brake at all.
Other than that, you'd get a very odd bike. I like the Super Hawk OK, but even the rubbery 400F frame and elastic forks feel a lot better than the pressed steel frame and semi-damped forks on the CB77. It has a friction steering damper because it (really) needs it at the 90mph or so top speed with the 305 twin... With double the horsepower I think it would go beyond scary right to pantstaining.
So... overall a better motorcycle than anything OCC cranks out and a lot cheaper... might be a fun project.

[bill440cars]

             Hey Bodi, I appreciate your response and interest but, I think you are confused about the
       CB77 frame. You described the frame for the CA77 Dream. The CB77 Super Hawk and the
       CB72 Hawk have frames that are made from welded tubing. I don't know that I'd try a project
       like that myself. I mainly was wondering if anyone knew where more info and photos were
       that could be looked at. I found it interesting and would like to look it over. Also, I think you'd
       have better luck trying to put that 400F engine in a CB450 frame than you would a CL72/77
       frame. No doubt, if a CB77F was attempted, the frame would have to beefed up and
       attached very securely to the engine. Also, I do have some experience with the CB72 250
       Hawk. I could take a 305 with it after the engine was reworked by a buddy and myself. I also
       replace the heavy mufflers with megaphones. I made runs on it (with open megphones) up to
       and slightly over 80mph with more throttle available and another gear. I also happen to have a
       64' CB77, a 63' CL72, a 76' CB400f and more. I hope you don't think that I'm trying to be a
       "know it all" because I don't but what I do know, I try to share, just like what I don't know I
       try to find out. So, anyway, I'm not even working on a project like that right now, I am trying
       to get my head straight on how I'm going to build my 77CB550K. I've got ideas of my own
       and also some from various folks on this site. I agree with your assessment of OCC. If I were to
       somehow win one of their bikes, I'd sell it, Buy me a truckload of parts, fix all my "project bikes         
       and build me a Super Shop with all the goodies (including heat & air) to house and work on 
       them. You take care, I gotta go and so I'll see you later on, Bill

[Ted Nomura]

An article from Classic Japanese Motorcycle Club about ten years ago (I forget which issue) had a picture of this mystery CB77/400 hybrid. From what I can remember, this was used as a running demonstrator with a prototype CB400F engine (the Japanese domestic type which is 398cc, not 408cc) tested in 1971. It was standard Japanese, especially Honda's practice, of testing their new bike and engine in America for endurance check, especially since until early 1970s, Nevada highway between the California State Line (now called Primm) and Las Vegas had unlimited speed limit so they can really open up. Suzuki tested their T500 prototype in 1967 and Honda checked their CB750 in 1968. But the CB77/400F hybrid was involved in an accident and since they were unregistered, Honda abandoned it rather than going through the hassle of recovering it from the police. It was kept in LAPD impound until one lucky guy found it and bought it. From what I can tell, it looks like it has a CB350F frame with CB77 gas tank.

[bill440cars]

  Ted, have you seen other photos of it, because from what I've seen, it looks more like the frame has been modified in front to come down to just above the oil filter. Ever thing else looks like CB77.   
            If you've got a photo or some photos maybe you'll have better success with posting them 
         than I have had trying to post the one I have. But really, the fenders, wheels, seat, gastank,   
         side covers, even the aluminum foot rest brackets are there. Like I say, There is a frame
         tube that comes down from the upper front part of the frame and down to just above the
         oil filter. Your talk about test bike reminds me, while I was stationed in Japan, I think my
         buddy and I saw a Kawasaki 500 MachIII. We were out at a dirt track at Misawa Air Force
         base, that I was stationed at, and a small japanese van pulled into the pit area, a guy got
         out, went around to the back of the van, opened the doors, a bike fired up inside the van,
         come out of the van down a board, made a few passes around the track (flew around the
         track) actually, drove back up into the van and they left. When we saw the bike, it looked
         like the engine was a little wider than usual. About 2 or 3 later, the Kaw. 500 Mach III 3
         cylinder was introduced. I can't help but feel like that was one that was stripped down.   
         Later on, Bill

[malcolmgb]

Bill, If you would like to e-mail picture to me I will post it for you.

[Sam Green Racing]

Hi guys,
The CB77 frame will more than cope with the 400s power and weight.

I have a mate who put a CBR250 in one and it kicks out nearly 60bhp with no problems.

Hope this helps.

Sam.

[malcolmgb]

ok all, Bill has e-mailed me his copy of the picture which I have posted on his behalf.

[bill440cars]

Hi guys,
The CB77 frame will more than cope with the 400s power and weight.

I have a mate who put a CBR250 in one and it kicks out nearly 60bhp with no problems.

Hope this helps.

Sam.

       Hey Sam, Can you get any details on your mates bike, sure would like to see and/or at least hear about the changes made to the frame (if any) and what kind of weight are we talking about with that CBR250 motor?  Thanks again for what you've given us already, I appreciate it.
                                          Later on, Bill

[Sam Green Racing]

I won't see him till 7th May, but Chris that rides the CR may still have images in his camera from last year, thats if he hasn't cleared them out.
I'll see what I can do.

Sam.

[HondaMan]

OK, Bill: you got me started....

The CB77 engine can accept the early CB/CL350 gearbox to make a 5-speed. Don't use the "fixed" 350 boxes that had the extra thrust bearing in between gears 2 and 3: it won't fit. Everything else drops in. Oh, get the shifter drum and forks, too. Throw away the silly 3-piece shift linkage and use the one-piece unit from the CB175.

If you cut 7.5" of the CB77 backbone frame out under the seat (right in the curved section) and reverse it, then weld it back on under the seat, you can insert a Rootes supercharger in the gap: it's strong enough to make a stiffer bike afterward. This will give you just enough room to insert either an SU carb or a Harley 750 Linkert in the gap. Cut a hole in the engine case right above the oil slinger (the "filter" in these engines) and install a longer chain on the slinger drive to turn the Rootes. Drill the Linkert mainjet out 11 sizes (I think the final hole was like a 200 mainjet). I could not figure a good way to install an air filter, though...

Aftermarket exhaust pipes for the CB77 could be had with just 2 baffles inside. These worked real well, keeping it quiet, just a little louder than stock.

The boost was set at 7 PSI, pistons were 10:1 CR (not forged). The supercharger came from a 1300cc Volkwagon engine in the boneyard, but worked fine.

Top speed finally reached the ton mark with 327cc displacement! It had to be geared up, though, because the 350 tranny runs almost 20% lower input ratios. The rear sprocket was the smallest I could get at the time, but, I'm sorry, I forgot the tooth count. The front, likewise, was the largest that would fit in the case.

But, on the outside, it still LOOKED like a SuperHawk - with a fairing to cover the blower.   

[bill440cars]

           Hondaman, between you and Sam, I'm getting some fantastic info on the old Super
   Hawks. you guys, gotta excuse me cause I've got some fond memories of my CB72 Hawk. What
   year model 350s had the gearboxes that would work? You said to get rid of the 3pc shifter,
   would there be a shifting problem if it was retained? are there any other carbs that would help
   the engine out? My Super Hawk has been stunted by the CA77 engine the the previous owner
   put in there. I hope to get an actual CB77 engine or enough parts to convert it to a CB77
   engine. I won't be going the route of the supercharger. I was thinking about some porting and 
   polishing, exhaust w/megphones, adequate carbs and the hopes of a mild set of cams. I
   remember that back then they had a type1 & a type2 engine. I know that one had dual point
   while the other had 1 set  and there was a difference in the crankshaft configuration but, I don't
   remember exactly how it goes. I kinda got this diverted to the Super Hawk and I didn't intend
   to, I just get carried away when this subject comes up. Sorry. Later on, Bill

[Sam Green Racing]

Hey Billy, the supercharger is a great idea.

A guy over here built one, it ran 9.8secs in 250 trim and 9 dead in 350 trim.

The 250 still holds the FIM world record for the quarter mile.

Sam.

[HondaMan]

          What year model 350s had the gearboxes that would work? You said to get rid of the 3pc shifter,
   would there be a shifting problem if it was retained? are there any other carbs that would help
   the engine out? My Super Hawk has been stunted by the CA77 engine the the previous owner
   put in there. I hope to get an actual CB77 engine or enough parts to convert it to a CB77
   engine. I won't be going the route of the supercharger. I was thinking about some porting and 
   polishing, exhaust w/megphones, adequate carbs and the hopes of a mild set of cams. I
   remember that back then they had a type1 & a type2 engine. I know that one had dual point
   while the other had 1 set  and there was a difference in the crankshaft configuration but, I don't
   remember exactly how it goes.

Bill, I sent you a PM about some of the mods. Also, I think the "donor" 350 was a wrecked 1968 CL350 that Mitch used the gearbox from. In the 7th or 8th month of 350 production, 2 changes were made: 1.) the oil pump was increased in size by 3 mm and 2.) the 2nd-3rd gears were narrowed and a thrust bearing was installed between them, because when the clutch was pulled in on a hot day, the gears dragged on each other so much that you couldn't shift unless you were rolling. At first, they issued a thrust washer to install between the original gears, which sort of worked until it wore out (very thin). The same problem carried into the Hawk, so we had to get some of the "recall" gear pairs for the early 350 and install those (they are 2mm narrower than the later versions). The later 350 versions were spaced differently enough that we did not wish to retry the whole installation again. That's why we had to do away with the 3-piece shifter: the inherent slop of that mechanism, plus the added shifting force required, stripped the splines on the original shifter shaft.

I seem to remember him saying that he had to grind away some corner of the cases somewhere a little to make the gears fit OK, but that was in 1969...I don't remember where the corner was. Sorry.

[Philly550K1]

i saw this at white rose last year......

[bill440cars]

   This is starting to get interesting, it's kinda making me want to build something out of the ordinary.
   
 
    Sam, thanks for the inspiring info on the et of the supercharged 250 & 350 versions.

 
    HondaMan,  you're really getting me fired up with this info, I'll take all I can get. Thanks again.

   
    Philly550K1,  Thanks for the photo. Now, I have one of a whole bike.