Author Topic: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?  (Read 59174 times)

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Offline Kong

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2011, 05:42:31 AM »
Tmdhawk, and others,

I'd like to relate to you my high-temperature painting experience from this past week.  I painted several parts using Duplicolor Engine Paint (marked with Ceramic).  The immediate results may interest you.

First off here's what I painted and how - and I'm going to go into some detail on this.  First, all of the parts were sanded beginning with 150 grit and moving up to 400 grit and polished (black, then red, then white Caswell compounds).  I painted a front and rear hub, Alternator Cover, Sprocket Cover, and a number of small parts.

On the hubs, the center sections were not sanded, they were cleaned and hit hard with a drill-powered wire brush, the flanges were sanded and polished.  After polishing the hubs were wiped down with Acetone to remove the residual wax from the compounds then scrubbed with dish soap and hot water and allowed to dry.  The flanges were masked.

The covers received similar treatment, they were cleaned and then the recessed sections of each case (the word "HONDA" in the Alternator Cover and the numbers "1-2,3,4,5" on the sprocket cover) were roughly masked.

All parts were kept in the house over night as was the paint.  I wanted all parts and paints at the same temperature the next morning.  Next day I took the parts and paints to a friends heated shop (indoor temperature similar to my house).  First I shot each part in Duplicolor Primer - two light coats followed by one heavier which I allowed to dry per the can instructions (about 10 minutes between coats).  Then I shot my color, which was also applied in two light coats, one heavier, per the can directions.  After the second color coat was dried I removed the masking and then shot 2 coats of Duplicolor clear.

Then I left the parts for 6 hours to dry in the heated shop.  After the 6 hours I brought the parts home and set them several feet from our wood burner where they sat overnight and got very warm.

Next day I repolished the Alternator and Sprocket covers.  All of the excess paint was removed but the paint stayed without any chipping in the recessed parts of the covers, making the inlays really stand out.

Then I laced the rear wheel.  You poke and bang lots of parts together when you lace a wheel; I got no chipping with the rear wheel.  Next I laced the front wheel.  Everywhere a spoke touched the paint it chipped.  Anywhere I sat the hub down it chipped.  If I so much as looked at it cross-eyed it chipped.  I pulled the spokes back out of it and set it aside to ponder the situation.

And that's where it is now, three or four days later.  I just picked up the front hub and took a hard look at it.  I notice one thing.  First there are a hundred chips in it, not just one or two, and second that in every case the chip goes all the way to the bare aluminum.  That tells me that it was the primer that didn't stick to the metal, not a problem of the color paint not adhering to the primer.

So ...

Normally, I believe, when you paint aluminum (which I have very little experience doing) you begin with a zinc-chromate primer.  I think that will be what I try next.  I'm not going to put that wheel back together if I think the center color might chip because you can't fix it without taking the wheel back apart and I do not want to have to do that anytime in the future.

 

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Offline Freaky1

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2011, 11:30:02 AM »
It sounds like results are a crap shoot at best, I'm thinking I'll look into having the entire engine powder coated. I'm sure this will not be cheap, anyone want to attempt to persuade me not to?
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Offline somesuch

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2011, 11:49:31 AM »
I used Duplicolor  "etching" primer on the top triple clamp (aluminum) and was very surprised by how well it stuck. Even brake cleaner would not easily take it off when i wanted to clean off the areas where the fork tubes go. Not sure how long it will last, but the immediate results were very good.

--nick

Offline Kong

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2011, 01:08:32 PM »
I think the etching primer may be what I try next.  I haven't used the stuff on anything in years because of problems I've had with topcoats on the stuff in the past.  I did find out that the zinc chromate primers, which were invented before the second world war, aren't of necessity any better at bonding, but they act as great pesticides.

So tonight I'm going to wire-brush the hub center back to bare metal, sand the clear off of the buffed metal, and tomorrow morning I'll either take it to my friends heated shop and shoot it with epoxy or run into town and buy a can of etch primer (rattle can) and try it.  Either way my time is running short.  My spokes should arrive sometime later this week and I want to get the new bearings and seals in the hub, get it laced and trued, and get a tire on it and none of that happens until it gets painted in a way that will stay.  If that doesn't work I'll probably power coat it.

What is really bothering me is that the rear wheel is all together, tire's on, balanced, and on the bike.  I do not want to have to take that wheel back apart to power coat the hub.  I have no idea why the front hub chipped so easily but I managed to get the rear hub together without any chipping at all even though I wasn't exercising any special care.  Could it be the aluminum alloy between the hubs is somehow different?  I am sure both parts got the same treatments in preparation.
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Offline somesuch

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2011, 01:29:57 PM »
Too bad the Duplicolor self etching primer is some light greenish/straw color, or I would just use that :) seriously, the stuff was very durable. Their engine paint was not chem resistant at all in comparison. Brake fluid/gas seemed to eat it pretty easy, but it did not chip!

--Nick

Offline Bido

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2011, 03:17:06 PM »
I have used VHT in the past and didn't like the color or finish not black enough I tried Dupli-color Engine Enamel Low Luster with good results. Last year I used Rustoleum Engine Enamel Semi Gloss Black on the head and cylinders and had very good results went on easy and was very resistant to oil and gas the color was a deep black and when cured had a nice low gloss finish which was easy to clean and you can't beat the price as with any paint the secret is in the prep. This year I am going to paint the entire engine as for the chipping I haven't noticed a problem.

Bido
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Offline Toxic

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2011, 03:44:58 AM »
I used the Duplicolor engine enamel 500 degree stuff on the engine covers and it sticks real well.  I have had the covers on and off several times with no chipping.

The only thing I did diferent is:
- wash and degrease the part
-sandblasted it
-then paint directly on the bare metal
- several heat cycles in the oven at 170F

I have also had good sucess with their wheel paint.  I did the rims with that but here I used a self etching primer first.

I hope you boys figure it out, I sure can understand your frustration.

Offline Elan

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2011, 01:16:43 PM »
considering I spent about $50 bucks for the vht paint total, Plus time,  I would have definately spent the extra $130(my local price) for powder and not have to worry about every pebble chipping my paint.
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Offline Hondell

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2011, 02:11:16 PM »
Here's my engine. Cases and barrels painted with Krylon Dull Aluminum. 2 years and counting . This is not high temp paint but I think because it has lots of aluminum in it, it's heat resistant enough for a CB.
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Offline VTCBike750

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2011, 05:00:34 PM »
Well Ive just read this thread and now find painting to be a crap shoot  :o.

I want to repaint my engine this winter (soda blasting might not be a possibility).  Soda blasting might not be a possibility. As of right now, it will be a lot of cleaning with a 50/50 concentration of Simple Green and acetone, maybe Aircraft Paint Stripper (per http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=90295.0), and then painting (but with what?).

Anyone have any follow-ups over the last riding season and paint recommendations?
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 07:16:30 PM by VTCBike750 »
-Adam

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Offline Tintop

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2011, 06:03:40 PM »
I've used the VHT products for years on everything, all kinds of different engines, karts, bikes, and both street & race cars.  Some have been prep'd to death, others just cleaned with Simple Green, wire brush, & soap/water.  The vast majority have stood up very well, but I have also had the 'chipping issue' rear it head occasionally.  Best I can figure is that over time the alloys both oxidze, and absorb contamients from the enviroment.  Some worse than others, and getting rid of those, so you have a 'clean' surface, can be hit and miss.  My 550 cases & head were prep'd the same way, and painted using the same can(s).  Zero chips on the cases, couple of chips on the head. ::) 
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Offline camelman

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2011, 07:17:45 AM »
What color codes are you using when you experience chipping?  I've used the DE1612 primer with DE1615 silver on five engines without any chipping issues. The engines are 1:CB500, 2:CB350f, 2:CB400f. I have never used the black engine paint. I did use the flat black duplicolor header paint (I believe it was duplicolor) on the exhaust headers for a 350 twin without chipping issues too.

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Offline jonboycox

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2011, 11:43:32 AM »
I have had lots of luck with rattle can paints. They are not as good as  catalyzed industrial grade mixtures, but they are pretty good for what they are. I will always clear coat the finished color with 3 thin coats. It greatly helps the chipping and general wear resistance. I have been finishing cabinets and furniture for 15 years professionally and the same rules apply. Always prep twice as much as you think you should. Always spray multiple thin coats. Always protect your color with a topcoat.

Offline Freaky1

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2012, 06:38:59 PM »
My motor is ready to be put in this weekend and I tried my best to be as careful, clean, and patient as possible when using VHT Flame Proof paint and I will never waste that kind of time again. First the curing regiment for this paint is nuts for aluminum engines, I did a few smaller pieces and I couldn't bring myself to do my cases like the instructions said. I have some pieces that are holding up well and others that I don't dare even breathe on wrong, and this is just sitting in my garage being assembled!  :o

Now, I am trying to paint a color on an engine, black as it is an "F" bike, so that might have something to do with EVERY chip and nick standing out. But I know once this thing gets out on the road it won't last even one week before I'll be touching it up. For the time and money I invested in this project I will be powder coating next time, these results have just not been worth it.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2012, 06:44:59 PM »
Did you try baking it on.? Most engine paints are far better after being baked on....
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Offline Freaky1

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2012, 10:00:29 AM »
VHT has a specific curing approach, 3 baking cycles at 250, 400 and finally at 600 degrees. My oven only goes to 550 and like I said I did a few smaller pieces like that but couldn't bring myself to subject my head, cases, or cylinders to that crazy amount of heat. Point is, even some of the smaller pieces that were prepped, painted, dried, and cured at the same time came out differently. One chips while the other one does not, and I'm not talking about edges or corners either. I will not say that it is all the fault of the product because I'm not perfect but for the time and effort I put into this I won't be using VHT Flame Proof paint again.
That which does not kill you leaves cool scabs which turn into awesome scars.

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Offline Bido

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2012, 03:43:02 PM »
I posted back in Febuary about using Rustoleum Engine Enamel Semi-Gloss I rode all summer and the paint still looks good I did notice a slight fade. Haven't had a problem with chipping or stains I have used VHT in the past and didn't like the color it wasn't black enough for me. I did the best I could on the prep degrease sanded with scotch bright pads. Most of the orignal paint was still there I figured that if it stayed on after sanding and degreasing and being there for 32 years it wasn't going anywhere. I cured the paint from the heat of the engine and that seemed to work fine.

Bido
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Offline lucky

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2012, 03:47:37 PM »
You made a mistake when you put solvent on the metal.
Once the solvent in in the pores of the metal it will have to be cleaned out.
Solvents have petroleum products in them.

here is what I would do.

Bead blast the metal.
Put it in the oven and bake it at the recommended time and heat with NO PAINT.
That is to burn up any solvents.
Then with clean hands (clean gloves) paint the metal and re bake at the recommended schedule.

Offline VTCBike750

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2012, 05:48:19 PM »
here is what I would do.

Bead blast the metal.
Put it in the oven and bake it at the recommended time and heat with NO PAINT.
That is to burn up any solvents.
Then with clean hands (clean gloves) paint the metal and re bake at the recommended schedule.

What might be the recommended time and heat without paint. Just curious.

Also, what would you do if baking and blasting arent options. Dont have the equipment to blast and dont plan on splitting the cases.
-Adam

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Offline Freaky1

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2012, 06:51:43 PM »
I bead basted everything, cleaned everything with paint prep oil & grease remover (the same stuff I've used before when painting other items), and then ran two cycles in the oven of 250 for 30 minutes then painted (after letting the items cool obviously). Like I said I'm not perfect but I certainly tried to do everything I could think of and I wasn't happy. Anyone who wants to try can but I won't be using VHT Flame Proof again, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.
That which does not kill you leaves cool scabs which turn into awesome scars.

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Offline wedoo2

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2012, 02:35:05 PM »
Interesting thread.  Exactly why I am not painting my motor black.
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Offline 750essess

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2012, 10:04:04 AM »
This stuff is what I use as a primer
www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/alodine1201.php
have also used it by itself, turns the aluminum to a goldish finish. Also available in clear. Does not act as an insulator to heat either
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Offline Tintop

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2012, 11:13:47 AM »
This stuff is what I use as a primer
www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/alodine1201.php
have also used it by itself, turns the aluminum to a goldish finish. Also available in clear. Does not act as an insulator to heat either

Thanks for posting that 750essess.  I've added the link to my favourites for future reference.  Keep forgetting that the guys who really know how the maintain alloy, are in the aircraft industry. ::)
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
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Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
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Offline the architect

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2012, 12:48:32 PM »
I used Duplicolor's engine enamel a year and a half ago - cast coat iron color.  So far, I'm tremendously happy with the results.  So far, the only things that have removed paint have been when the bike has been dropped and when I was hit by a car.  Tools, gas and cleaning solvents haven't phased it.

Prep is 90% of painting.  I spent 3 weeks cleaning and degreasing the engine in preparation for paint.  Also, paint continues to harden for days, weeks, even months after painting - especially the spray can stuff.  I wouldn't jump in and immediately "test" a finish. 

Some of the flaws I've noted or suspect from the above paint application conversation:

-   Polish.  Taking an aluminum surface to a polish before painting is counter-productive.  The surface no longer has any "tooth" to which the paint can adhere.  A sandpaper scuffed surface is typically preferable.
-  Thickness.  My engine has 2 or 3 (can't remember precisely) coats of primer and then 3 or 4 coats of paint.  Hey - it's worked for me ;-)
-  Cure time between coats.  Duplicolor (and I suspect others) has very explicit directions regarding cure time, including between paint applications.  Follow these.  My engine sat a week after primer, curing before I laid down paint.  I didn't get all my painting done, so it sat another week between some of the paint coats.  It was a long process but totally worthwhile.

Cheers and good luck!
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Offline Ernest T

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Re: Anyone else have chipping issues with VHT engine paint?
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2012, 02:35:17 PM »
I used the Eastwood engine paint on an SL100 and it is a very durable, hard finish.  I used the activator and shot it with a spray gun.  The engine was degreased, bead blasted, washed with soap and water, wiped with paint prep cleaner, primed and painted.  The only problem I have with it is the aluminum color is more gray than silver. 

I wonder what Honda uses to paint their engines at the factory.  All my bikes with factory engine paint look great no matter how old they are.  That paint is tough and durable as long as its not subjcted to a lot of weather.  I've not seen any primer under any factory engine or frame paint.