Topic: Let's go roadracing...continuing saga

[scottly]

Great little batteries but "hit the wall" without much warning when voltage drops below a certain level.

More like a cliff, but I agree, they are great little batteries. (Thanks Doug!)
Just put the finishing touches on a new battery tray for the X-Cell.

[kayaker43]

The battery revolution is beginning but there are some strings attached for now. Until new circuitry gets developed to protect against over discharge, you have to be the one who monitors it. I've been as up front about it as I possibly could but the fact remains that these batteries can't be discharged fully without damage. They can tolerate tremendous abuse with high current draws, and are very robust in every other way, but every time the voltage drops off hard, some damage occurs. When this happens get a charge in them as soon as possible to minimize damage.

Running total loss is a calculated risk with any battery. The trial and error method is expensive with these batteries. I highly reccommend running a small volt meter until you find a comfortable run time with your particular setup. They also sell wattmeters for R/C use that can measure total capacity used, kind of like a fuel gage.

Every other product that uses these carries a protection circuit to make them people proof. The problem with our application is that its harder to control a high current. Its no problem to switch off a few milliamps in a cell phone but much harder to switch a large current like a motorcycle battery can sometimes see.

Running total loss ignition is not real high current like cranking a starter. As long as you don't have a starter on your racebike, you could probably use a protection circuit borrowed from a 12 volt cordless drill pack like this one.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=dewalt+12+volt+lithium&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7ACGW_enUS407US407&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=2149357349458504005&sa=X&ei=-SjjTYz5LILL0AHfg5m4Bw&ved=0CEQQ8wIwBA#

The end result is the same, you are still left without power after you use it all up, and you still have no warning. A protection circuit just saves the battery. You still have to size the battery right for its intended use.

[Sam Green Racing]

Wake up Mr Waller, we need to know how you weekend turned out, good I hope.

Sam.

[bwaller]

Go to bed Mr. Green, it's this coming weekend.   

I'm not poo-pooing these batteries Doug, I'm confident I have the recipe to keep them working well. To be honest I haven't checked current draw yet, my gauge isn't up to it. Regardless, with a second unit and sprint races they'll be ok.

[turboguzzi]

I think most dyna pick up problems are related to high temp, so maybe a holed ign cover could help.

would suggest bringing the points plate with you for race weekend, you can never know..... seen it save the day for more than one "dyna guy"

how are you with resistance? think i've mentioned this before,  but what cured some high rpm misfiring for me was actually MORE ohms in the cap + plug.

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Brent,I know the feeling.....we'll see what they find with Samauto's ignition(Dyna has it now).
Tha Dyna S working fine. I also liked the 2000 better....til it went south/north! ::)Bill
Good Luck this week and dyno #'s when possible.

[voxonda]

Brent, I know the feeling too. When my hero of yesteryear rode my bike last year, the Dyna went after warming up and two laps. It played all weekend, when cooled down it ran wonderful until it reached a certain temp. Am now playing with the self-generating ignition.
Keep us posted about the weekend, very interested in your endeavours.

Cheers mate, Rob

[bwaller]

I bought a nice slotted ignition cover from Rob fiquring it might help keep things cooler under there. Quess heat is not the only reason pickups fail.
It pulls cleanly then breaks up at exactly the same rpm which seems odd it's only mainjet. It smells like rev limiter malfunction to me but I'll get some time one evening to try a different Dyna "brain" that I know works. I'll do a plug chop as well.

I'm using copper core wires & NGK5 ohm caps but haven't seen any difference trying resistor plugs. There is absolutely no misfire anywhere. Seems Dyna prefers suppression wires but as long as there is enough resistance elsewhere copper wires should be fine. I'm hoping (and seems like) the 80's pulse type coils will work well with the 550 combustion chamber so I can use regular wires and avoid those suppression things with Dyna coils.

I'll get it back on a dyno someday and test these different components, but for now I just need to fly by the seat of my pants!

Thanks for all the encouragement, I'll keep you posted.

[kayaker43]

Brent,.. I understand you're not criticizing the batteries,.. thanks for that. I tried to only sell them to performance oriented people who could grasp the all the consequences of their use. When you do settle on a safe running time, without over discharging, others will benefit from that knowledge.

You're just experiencing the joys of being a pioneer 

[NickO]

I haven't reached the problem of ignitions yet as we have not finished, (or should that be started?) the engine build yet

Please remember that with most of the modern ignition systems you must use the resistor type spark plugs. Now I don't know for sure, but I'm betting it is to keep the current draw within certain limits, as when you increase the resistance, you decease the current, and so limit the power dissipated.

[voxonda]

+1, on the self generating ignition you "must" use resistor type plugs and caps.

[Boner]

Hey Tintop ,
We have been trying to track you down and I see you have just posted in this thread. Can you get back to us and let us know what progress has been made on the Mosport Rally or if you are too busy just let us know.

[Flying J]

Stalker....

[Boner]

Yup I guess I am
Just need the facts

[Tintop]

Got down to Shannonville Saturday, to take in bwaller's 1st outing.  There was rain off and on all the way to the track, not a promising beginning.

Meet up before his 1st race, in a steady rain.  Long and the short.  The bike is very quick, as his grin atested too.  I'm sure Mike will be getting a call.  bwaller was making a good account (counted about 4/5 passes in the rain , until teething issues, or excessive water, ended the run.  That 6 speed will be ace @ Mosport, but the Mic 29's still need a little sorting apparently, but sure do look good.   There were more races today, and the weather should have been perfect.  Looking forward to bwaller's update on today's race result.

For all us SOHC4 fans, there were 7 500/550's to start the weekend (5 left standing after practice & 1st race ).  There was a beautifully prepared 350/4 with a set of very rare Wolf 4 into 4's megas, but only a couple of 750's.  Sorry, no photos, the moisture got to the camera.

[bwaller]

Quick update. Is was good to see Tintop and as he mentioned we made the first race weekend in a bit of a hobbled state. Long story short it was a weekend of highs & lows. Unable to finish my heat race, but managed a third in the final.... when one poor guy ahead of me ran out of gas.   

More later, maybe someone with Mic smoothbore experience can chime in.

[turboguzzi]

Well, you've done it!!!! (somehow )

How did the bike do compared to the others sohc's out there?

Lessons learned?

TG

[bwaller]

I surely haven't learned all the lessons yet TG, but at least for now I know there's still some fight left in this old dog.  It sure can be difficult trying to troubleshoot problems at the track. Maybe because I'm a new guy, but there was a lot of interest in my bike and finding quiet time was tough. Once the carbs are better dialed in, little changes will seem easy.

I worked feverishly Thursday to sort carburation before I left but had to settle on settings that were less than ideal in absence of some parts. We arrived at the track late Thursday night and through tech first thing Friday in time for practice. I had three sessions and apart from the carburation was pleased with the bike. It didn't seem to "unsettle" at least at the pace I was riding. It is indeed quick.

Long story short Saturday wasn't great, early practice was fine but rain produced some missing in the second and in the heat race I sputtered and splashed around in the wet for a couple laps to at least secure a better than back row starting spot for Sundays final. I will be honest, the ignition problem was self inflicted  . Rob made me a nice slotted ignition cover that I hoped would help the Dyna pickups stay cooler. I planned to cover those in the event of rain.....well quess what, what an ass I am.    Once the skies cleared I dried the ignition, raised the needles, and drained the fifteen pounds of water accumulated in the bellypan! I rode the bike around and it seemed very crisp.

Sunday morning practice was quite good with cool temps. The bike only pulled to 9K but compared to the day before I was happy enough and knew I could manage the long straight. It wasn't perfect through the other carb curcuits either, but I left home knowing there would be problems, it wasn't overly lean and I'd have to live with it. We were holding our own but was passed by one of the fast guys on a beautiful CB350F. I had motor on him but he is a great rider so I just tagged along to learn the fast way around this 4km deal.

More later....stand by. 

[Tintop]

It's to bad I couldn't be around for Sunday.  Sounds like you had a less eventful, more enjoyable day.

You know the way that belly pan holds water, the next rain race, just throw in some tea bags, and let the headers brew everything.

[bwaller]

Yea that bellypan was half full of water in two laps, could be the secret weapon for success with that ballast down low.

If I'm talking to myself here then no-one will know any different.  Cut to the race final, nineteen on the grid sheet although I think a couple didn't show including Scott's son (martin 426 here) Six P2 750's started in the first wave, followed by the middleweights. I was on the third row and got a flier of a start into 2nd by turn one only to be swallowed up by the same 350F and a very savvy rider on a Yamaha TT500 single turned roadracer. I again tucked in behind the 350, man this guy is smooooth. I could see the Yamaha but we were losing a bit of ground on him. Deb said later the gap back to fifth was growing and we worked past two of the 750's. By the middle of lap 2 we came up on a crashed Trident on the race line and Steve half jumped the turtles in the appex to avoid him and nearly tossed it himself. When we were clear of the incident I got past him and half heartedly thought I might put some distance between us once I got on the long straight. As I feared might happen the red flag put an end to the fun and we had a 45 minute wait for the track to be cleaned. The Trident had left oil half way around the track before his tire let him down. The bellypan rule only comes into effect in August......

As a result we were given 2 sighting laps followed by a six lap sprint. We weren't allowed to pit and I'm thinking about everything now, enough gas? What about the little battery, a long delay idling before the start, three laps done, eight more plus a cool down would be nearly thirty minutes. Very tight.

The restart wasn't so good, I couldn't get clear but the same three did get to the front. The temperatures had been rising all day and this time the engine was acting up more. It took a while to work past another 550 into 4th but as my problems continued we swapped positions back & forth. Half race we came up on the Yamaha rolling off the track (out of fuel) which meant the race was now for 3rd place. If I made even a little mistake the other guy was past me and by now I couldn't pull 6th gear so he'd eat me up on the straight. Last lap and I managed to out brake him at the end of the straight and was faster through the final section and beat him by a second or so.

Great fun all in all. Lots of work still to do. 

[voxonda]

Hey Brent,

Good to hear you've been out there! Just get that tracktime under your belly, the rest will come. It is a learning curve we have to go thru.
I've been out since many years and just cannot remember I had so much fun.

Cheers, Rob

[MRieck]

Yea that bellypan was half full of water in two laps, could be the secret weapon for success with that ballast down low.

If I'm talking to myself here then no-one will know any different.  Cut to the race final, nineteen on the grid sheet although I think a couple didn't show including Scott's son (martin 426 here) Six P2 750's started in the first wave, followed by the middleweights. I was on the third row and got a flier of a start into 2nd by turn one only to be swallowed up by the same 350F and a very savvy rider on a Yamaha TT500 single turned roadracer. I again tucked in behind the 350, man this guy is smooooth. I could see the Yamaha but we were losing a bit of ground on him. Deb said later the gap back to fifth was growing and we worked past two of the 750's. By the middle of lap 2 we came up on a crashed Trident on the race line and Steve half jumped the turtles in the appex to avoid him and nearly tossed it himself. When we were clear of the incident I got past him and half heartedly thought I might put some distance between us once I got on the long straight. As I feared might happen the red flag put an end to the fun and we had a 45 minute wait for the track to be cleaned. The Trident had left oil half way around the track before his tire let him down. The bellypan rule only comes into effect in August......

As a result we were given 2 sighting laps followed by a six lap sprint. We weren't allowed to pit and I'm thinking about everything now, enough gas? What about the little battery, a long delay idling before the start, three laps done, eight more plus a cool down would be nearly thirty minutes. Very tight.

The restart wasn't so good, I couldn't get clear but the same three did get to the front. The temperatures had been rising all day and this time the engine was acting up more. It took a while to work past another 550 into 4th but as my problems continued we swapped positions back & forth. Half race we came up on the Yamaha rolling off the track (out of fuel) which meant the race was now for 3rd place. If I made even a little mistake the other guy was past me and by now I couldn't pull 6th gear so he'd eat me up on the straight. Last lap and I managed to out brake him at the end of the straight and was faster through the final section and beat him by a second or so.

Great fun all in all. Lots of work still to do.

Sounds good Brent. Maybe now that the ignition OK you can check the A/F on the dyno.

[TimV840]

I surely haven't learned all the lessons yet TG, but at least for now I know there's still some fight left in this old dog.  It sure can be difficult trying to troubleshoot problems at the track. Maybe because I'm a new guy, but there was a lot of interest in my bike and finding quiet time was tough.

Hey Brent, you wouldn't be bothered so much if you weren't such a nice guy, and your bike wasn't so damn pretty!

Congrats on your 3rd. Not bad for for an old guy, getting back into the game.

I'm still trying to get through some audio issues of my on board video from our track day of two weeks ago...our last run of the day gave the guys on the modern bikes quite a show. I'll post them on youtube along with this weekends races as soon as I can. Search for redbeast840 .

Hope to see you at the Romp next month?

Cheers,

TimV #840

[bwaller]

Hey Tim, these guys should all know what kind of group this VRRA is. As soon as the riders arrived in from our race stopage people came in with water and gatorade (thanks man) and any help that might be needed. It is commonplace throughout the weekend, what a great bunch of folks.

I just found the race laptimes and I can see there's a lot to learn,  you guys are indeed the ones to try to follow. By the way TimV won his race & was always in the hunt in everything else he entered.

I'll be there.

[bwaller]

OK, excuse the gigglefest, quess I'm just happy to be finally "back out there". Now back to basics and I welcome suggestions. These smoothbores are older carbs but offer lots of adjustibility and it seems there are still plenty of parts available.  Everybody tells me they're too big for the engine, but I don't buy it. What about all the CR29's the guys are using.

Two weeks ago the engine broke up at exactly the same point all the time (9-9200) It seemed odd to me it could be only mainjet but appeared a touch lean to me. But as I increased mainjet sizes there was no reaction and with plug chops last Thursday proved to not change the circuit all the way to 145 mains which is ridiculously big in my mind. Eventually I ran it with no mainjets at all, just open needlejets. At this point it only went rich but not until 8500 rpm which likely points to needlejets that are too small??

Something else I decided to try first are smaller airjets located in the carb inlets. I ordered the smallest size to see what reaction it gives me before looking at changing needlejets.

Two issues troubling me are,

1) what I experienced last weekend was an engine that suffered as it became hotter. If this is actually carburation like I think, it points to a rich condition?

2) I couldn't open the throttle wide or it went lazy, back off a bit and it cleaned up but never went past that 9000 rpm point, clearly a lean condiiton to me.

It would be great to have some good ideas. I agree about the dyno Mike but I have to be able to make it better first otherwise I'll spend too much time working through what should be my homework.