Author Topic: Let's go roadracing...continuing saga  (Read 193930 times)

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Offline Kemp

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #125 on: June 07, 2011, 09:56:48 AM »
Fantastic first outing! I'm really pissed that I didn't get to Shannonville to see you run. You'll definitely have another supporter for the Romp. By the way, we need pictures, pictures, pictures!

Offline bwaller

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #126 on: June 07, 2011, 10:30:17 AM »
By the way I just drained my tank & had only 225cc's of fuel left, holy crap.

I hope some of you can suggest some carb tuning ideas.

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #127 on: June 07, 2011, 10:37:12 AM »
have you tried taking the stacks off?

if not, then do it..... :)

TG

Offline Howell

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #128 on: June 07, 2011, 11:50:26 AM »
Hi Brent,

Congratulations , first time and already 3rd that's incredible.
We are still waiting for our first podium finish but that's difficult we have a strong competition with fast bikes and riders.
In our CR's 29 mm we have 118 mainjets and  70 slow jet , needle clip in 3.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #129 on: June 07, 2011, 02:13:18 PM »
OK, excuse the gigglefest, quess I'm just happy to be finally "back out there". Now back to basics and I welcome suggestions. These smoothbores are older carbs but offer lots of adjustibility and it seems there are still plenty of parts available.  Everybody tells me they're too big for the engine, but I don't buy it. What about all the CR29's the guys are using.

Two weeks ago the engine broke up at exactly the same point all the time (9-9200) It seemed odd to me it could be only mainjet but appeared a touch lean to me. But as I increased mainjet sizes there was no reaction and with plug chops last Thursday proved to not change the circuit all the way to 145 mains which is ridiculously big in my mind. Eventually I ran it with no mainjets at all, just open needlejets. At this point it only went rich but not until 8500 rpm which likely points to needlejets that are too small??

Something else I decided to try first are smaller airjets located in the carb inlets. I ordered the smallest size to see what reaction it gives me before looking at changing needlejets.

Two issues troubling me are,

1) what I experienced last weekend was an engine that suffered as it became hotter. If this is actually carburation like I think, it points to a rich condition?

2) I couldn't open the throttle wide or it went lazy, back off a bit and it cleaned up but never went past that 9000 rpm point, clearly a lean condiiton to me.

It would be great to have some good ideas. I agree about the dyno Mike but I have to be able to make it better first otherwise I'll spend too much time working through what should be my homework.
I agree. I disagree. Backing off the throttle dropped the needle into the needle jet which reduced the needle taper which leaned the mixture out.. ;) I PM'd you. I've gone through this with CR's Brent. ::) ;D
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline bwaller

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #130 on: June 07, 2011, 02:21:48 PM »
I tried it without stacks at different settings, it always ran worse. I don't want anyone to think I'm any super rider, just another bloke out having fun.

I believe I saw a comparison chart once between Mikuni & Keihin settings. It wouldn't answer much except starting point. I can't imagine why it shouldn't be happy in the 115-117.5 mainjet area. It'll get sorted out.

Kemp I'm hoping to get to NB so may see you there.

Got the PM Mike and see your point. The plugs lead me the other way but I'm game for ideas, believe me.   ??? I'll try Jeff @ Z1 tomorrow but don't think he had needle options in stock. I'll get on the horn tomorrow.

Offline TimV840

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #131 on: June 12, 2011, 09:41:39 AM »
Here's that video following(well, trying to) Brent at Shannonville last month. It's a few laps in when he passes me.

Enjoy:

There are quite a few more videos on my channel(some from this past race weekend) if you're into that. Goes back to '06 when I started racing :

Hhmmm...wont let me post external links... you'll have to go to youtube and search for redbeast840. It's the last video uploaded.

TimV
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Offline paulages

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #132 on: June 12, 2011, 10:52:41 AM »
Congrats Brent! I like the detailed race descriptions. Keep it up, you're definitely not just talking to yourself.

Regarding your 9K problem.. is it always 9K, or is it the throttle position? If it's jetting, it seems like it would occur in other rev ranges at WOT, and likewise it seems like an ignition problem at a specific rev range would happen in any throttle range at that RPM. Was my jetting helpful at all?
paul
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #133 on: June 12, 2011, 11:49:04 AM »
I never even saw you with a camera Tim, shows how observant I am.  It's not very flattering being filmed learning the track...kinda like here's what not to do.  ;D  At least you didn't get footage of my off track prowess.  ;)

Paul, so far it likes #20 pilots, although that may change. It seems odd to me that if carburetion, it only shows at that 9k mark. (I did try a different Dyna box thinking it might be rev limiter, but without change.) However backing out of the throttle when it occurs cleans it up a bit so Mike suggested it's over rich at that point and dropping the needle helps. He has wisely suggested to try a richer needle dropped a clip or two. It suffers more the hotter it gets, which agreed is a sign of being over rich.

First I want to follow my nose. With these smoothbores there is an air jet in the inlet that directly feeds the needle jet. I get no response changing up on the mains above 115 and as a matter of fact even without a mainjet it only goes rich @8500, so the first test is with a smaller air jet which are cheap and available. My theory is too large an airjet may be disquising the needle jet as over lean?? 

It is a nightmare trying to sort through different needle option charts. These things are old and needle selection isn't what it used to be, seems if you find a needle that looks good, it will be longer than the one that needs replacing. If the air jets don't help, I might go with a richer needle jet instead and follow Mikes suggestion of running the needle lower to lean it out on top.

The carbs are back on but it's rainy & miserable, so testing can wait.

My improved chain roller tensioner lasted only two hundred clicks (should have listened to TG & Simon) Here's the replacment which mounts in the same location and will be allowed some chance to pivot.









Offline Tintop

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #134 on: June 12, 2011, 12:28:35 PM »
Great video(s) 4hundred4racer, thanks.

Like the Mk3 tensioner bwaller.
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #135 on: June 12, 2011, 12:48:24 PM »
hei brent

for those few seconds we saw you, you looked pertty good for a damp track id say.

Still shocked that they let you in with modern bikes, even if its only a track day....

TG

Offline bwaller

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #136 on: June 12, 2011, 01:53:25 PM »
TG there were only thirty or forty bikes in two groups. Four vintage riders, three if you go back into the seventies. We were supposedly in the slower group but bikes & riders mixed into one anothers group throughout the day. It was never an issue. By the way the track was dry, but no need for further comment.  ::) First time in a long time (he says tongue in cheek).

Offline Jon

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #137 on: June 12, 2011, 03:18:21 PM »
Try & track down an O2 data logger, worth their weight in gold IMHO.

I got this in kit form for the price of a few dyno runs.


I made up a slip in adaptor for my VFR track bike.


Just in front of can.


The software is pretty easy to use, can recommend this company but sure there are others out there.
http://wbo2.com/sw/log.htm

Cheers
Jon
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #138 on: June 12, 2011, 03:59:23 PM »
NC30, very nice 8) any more  pics ? sorry Brent, yours is more than nice also. ;)

Sam. ;)
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Online scottly

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #139 on: June 12, 2011, 07:40:58 PM »

Hhmmm...wont let me post external links... you'll have to go to youtube and search for redbeast840. It's the last video uploaded.

TimV
To deter spammers, you are not allowed to post links until you have 5 posts. Since that was only your fifth post, try again. ;)
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Online scottly

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #140 on: June 12, 2011, 07:49:42 PM »
I did try a different Dyna box thinking it might be rev limiter, but without change.)
Have you tried changing the rev limit setting? Try setting it to the max 16,000 and see what happens. It couldn't hurt to try..
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline TimV840

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #141 on: June 13, 2011, 04:27:42 AM »
Thanks for that!

Here's the link:

May 22nd Trackday Long Track

And my other videos:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Redbeast840#g/a

OK, now back to Brent's burbling bike.  :'(

Tim


Hhmmm...wont let me post external links... you'll have to go to youtube and search for redbeast840. It's the last video uploaded.

TimV
To deter spammers, you are not allowed to post links until you have 5 posts. Since that was only your fifth post, try again. ;)
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #142 on: June 13, 2011, 04:35:58 AM »
I'll be the first to admit my trouble shooting skills have surely softened over the years. At this point I'm pissed at myself. I got out for a test ride last evening after it was well warmed up. It pulled very cleanly right until 9k, BUT IT ACTS LIKE IT'S HITTING THE LIMITER. It's a bit more obvious now than earlier. I tried changing the rev limiter settings in both directions & the result is the same. When I tried the other box earlier I believe I only set the limiter to cut out higher than necessary but it still broke up at 9000. This second box I use on my 750 without trouble, and the rev limiter WAS working last I checked.

So I was wrong for not focusing more on the ignition, but now...... Timing is set @ 30 degrees, am using pulse type 2.5ohm Honda DOHC750 coils with copper core wires and OEM 5ohm caps. I've tried resister plugs as well....no diff. Dyna suggests using suppression wires, but it isn't necessary if there is enough resistance???so they tell me. I have a set of 3ohm Dyna coils with suppression wires I was going to try on the dyno for comparison. Maybe I should try those first.

I have another ignition option in the wings if a problem doesn't show itself soon.

The plot thickens, so if anyone sees a glaring error in my ways, please fire away.

Offline MRieck

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #143 on: June 13, 2011, 07:54:04 AM »
I'll be the first to admit my trouble shooting skills have surely softened over the years. At this point I'm pissed at myself. I got out for a test ride last evening after it was well warmed up. It pulled very cleanly right until 9k, BUT IT ACTS LIKE IT'S HITTING THE LIMITER. It's a bit more obvious now than earlier. I tried changing the rev limiter settings in both directions & the result is the same. When I tried the other box earlier I believe I only set the limiter to cut out higher than necessary but it still broke up at 9000. This second box I use on my 750 without trouble, and the rev limiter WAS working last I checked.

So I was wrong for not focusing more on the ignition, but now...... Timing is set @ 30 degrees, am using pulse type 2.5ohm Honda DOHC750 coils with copper core wires and OEM 5ohm caps. I've tried resister plugs as well....no diff. Dyna suggests using suppression wires, but it isn't necessary if there is enough resistance???so they tell me. I have a set of 3ohm Dyna coils with suppression wires I was going to try on the dyno for comparison. Maybe I should try those first. I have another ignition option in the wings if a problem doesn't show itself soon.

The plot thickens, so if anyone sees a glaring error in my ways, please fire away.
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Offline paulages

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #144 on: June 13, 2011, 08:46:24 AM »
I was going to say the same thing as Mike, Brent. I can't really think of why this would be the case, but maybe the pulse type coils are messing with the Dyna brain. In any case, it'll be one less variable. Do you have a points assembly around you could try just for testing purposes?
paul
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #145 on: June 13, 2011, 10:36:49 AM »
Wow,way to go Brent! Took a while to get caught up.Agree with Mike on jetting.
Why not Dyna S and coils.....and a set of 750 SOHC 28's.Can use linkage or cable 4-1 's.
Have carbs if you want to use a set of either.With this set up bike will pull 13,000+!! ;)
Well it does have Pop's head on it! Are the slides clearing the bores completely? Big Jim bought my 29's....it's a lot of carb,but you have a lot of motor!! MRieck does awesome work! 8) The above would be simple...let me know.Bill
P.S. You hooked again? I am!...nothing like a strong bike/motor and an open track!!
Tach accurate?
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #146 on: June 19, 2011, 03:03:17 AM »
A bit of an update.

I replaced the 750DOHC coils with Dyna 3ohm and that appears to be the answer to my problem. I'm not sure if the 9k ceiling was actually an issue with coil function or excessive electrical "noise" affecting the Dyna box. I tried different combinations of resistor caps & plugs, but somehow this type coil wouldn't work. I thought with tight piston squish and small de-shrouded combustion chamber these pulse type quick fire coils would be a good thing. Shows what I know. ::)

I was ready to toss this ignition of favour of GSXR components (like TurboGuzzi did) but for now we'll see where it leads. So giant leap forward for me. Yesterday I installed new suppression wires and it revs to the moon cleanly. The carburation cannot be horrible just the way it is but I have another dyno session on Thursday and I'm armed to the teeth with carb parts.  ;)

My new improved chain tensioner slide material wasn't the answer either (wore out quickly) but I have some Delrin arriving this week. Hopefully this will be a better choice of material.

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Offline fastbroshi

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #147 on: June 19, 2011, 03:15:51 AM »
Good to hear you're still at it Brent.  Good luck at the dyno.
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Offline voxonda

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #148 on: June 19, 2011, 03:55:57 AM »
I just knew you would find your way out of that 'mess'. You'll get there, just hang in.

Cheers, Rob
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Offline haill

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Re: Picture Time...track update.
« Reply #149 on: June 19, 2011, 05:21:59 AM »
with your chain tensioner, could you have a sprocket machined out of delrin which tensions your chain in place of the slider idea?
seems like it will have a very hard life.
the sprocket carrier could work on a spring or just adjusted via a sliding lock bolt as the chain stretches.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 05:27:04 AM by haill »