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Offline TwoTired

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Understanding duct physics Part one
« on: February 17, 2011, 02:09:20 PM »
Understanding duct physics   Part one

I created a little drawing to help the viewer understand what goes on inside an inlet runner when physical changes are made to it.
Bike modifiers often change the air filter from stock to pod type filters or Velocity stacks, without understanding how that effects the carb settings.  This is an attempt toward understanding of why the carbs have to change in order to adapt to such a change.

The drawing was made to relate the basic concepts.  It is not the final word on duct interaction in a physical environment.  But rather, it is foundational in conceptional understanding of duct physics.  It deals with duct pressures rather than the air flow volume or speed that results from pressure differentials.

We begin with a duct 30 inches in total length.  One end of the duct is open to the atmosphere.  Although it is really under pressure from the miles of atmosphere stacked on top of it, for our purposes, we will use it here as a point of reference, as most automotive pressure gauges show, and label it zero PSI.  In reality, this point would be the air filter chamber entrance opening.  Or, if the filter membrane is exposed, as with pod type filters, the outside of the filter membrane.

The other end of the duct ends at the intake valve, where negative pressure is applied via the falling piston on the intake stroke.
For this illustration, I've chosen -30 PSI as what the piston has presented to the outlet side of the duct.  It should be obvious that there must exist a gradient inside the duct representing a  change in pressure between -30 a zero PSI.  I've shown that as the red line in this idealized drawing.  Note that at 10 inches from the negative pressure source, the pressure has changed (raised to -20 PSI) due to the effects of the air moving towards the partial vacuum source.  (For this illustration, we will ignore the fluid viscosity and resistance to flow from the duct's features.)  For illustrative purposes, we'll say the gradient is a linear relationship of change over length.

The next drawing shows the duct shortened to 20 inches (representing the change from the stock air induction to pod filters or velocity stacks).  Still measuring 10 inches from the negative pressure source, we see that the pressure has changed from -20 PSI to -15 PSI, as it is now closer the pressure equalization source (inlet). The carburetor position didn't physically move in the duct relative to the negative pressure source.  The duct was just cut off so it's relative position in the duct DID change.

Why is this significant?

On the lower drawing, I have added a carb fuel bowl and a fuel jet tube.  At the bottom of the jet tube is zero PSI as is what the atmosphere presents to the fuel level and jet tube inlet.  The negative pressure at the carb air duct  pulls the fuel through the jet tube at a rate proportional the differential pressure applied to the jet tube ends.  For a given tube size (or orifice size inside the tube), the volume of fuel delivered reduces when the duct throat pressure reduces its drawing power.

Note that the volume of air transferred in the duct can be any value, as duct resistance to flow is not a factor.  If the piston and valve timing are the same in both duct length examples, the air volume remains constant in both examples of duct length.  However, a change in duct pressure DOES change the volume of fuel mixed with the air, and thus changes the air fuel mixture delivered to the engine.  To restore the mixture ratio that was correct for the 30 inch duct in the 20 inch duct, the fuel jet tube orifice must increase in size to allow more fuel to pass with a lower pressure differential applied to it.

There's more to it of course.  Inlet duct entrance design, filter membrane characteristic, duct obstructions, venturi effect, turbulence, etc.

If there's interest, perhaps I will continue with inlet duct physics.  But, that's all for now.


Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2011, 02:18:20 PM »
Nice stuff, Lloyd.
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2011, 02:18:45 PM »
Cool,

I made a diagram like this for myself some time back, based on similar explanations you've given in the past.  Based on your drawing it seems I was correctly understanding what you were saying.

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Offline mjstone

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2011, 03:27:23 PM »
Great stuff TT!  I'm interested in more!

MJ
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Offline Kong

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2011, 03:32:29 PM »
So you're saying that the pressure at the Venturi is a function of the distance from the intake valve and the increased velocity of the fluid caused by the restricted passage, the old Bernoulli Effect, isn't a player in the equation?  That would be a most interesting assertion.
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Offline Cqyqte

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2011, 03:35:30 PM »
Very informative, now taking this concept a step further what affect would this http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83895.0;topicseen have on the theory?

Offline Pinhead

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2011, 03:42:54 PM »
I'm going to have to contemplate this one. Thanks. :)
Doug

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Offline mlinder

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2011, 04:20:04 PM »
So you're saying that the pressure at the Venturi is a function of the distance from the intake valve and the increased velocity of the fluid caused by the restricted passage, the old Bernoulli Effect, isn't a player in the equation?  That would be a most interesting assertion.

Pretty sure he covered that.
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2011, 04:21:52 PM »
So you're saying that the pressure at the Venturi is a function of the distance from the intake valve and the increased velocity of the fluid caused by the restricted passage, the old Bernoulli Effect, isn't a player in the equation?  That would be a most interesting assertion.

Well, you haven't changed the proportions of the venturi, so I'd say that influence of the Bernoulli effect would be consistent in each case.  

You'd still get a pressure drop at the venturi throat, but that drop is as compared to the pressure before and after the venturi.  In Lloyd's second case, there is less vacuum present surrounding the venturi, so the pressure drop created by the venturi results in a vacuum level at the fuel jet that's still less than in the first case.

mystic_1
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2011, 06:24:19 PM »
So you're saying that the pressure at the Venturi is a function of the distance from the intake valve and the increased velocity of the fluid caused by the restricted passage, the old Bernoulli Effect, isn't a player in the equation?  That would be a most interesting assertion.

I have no idea how you interpreted that from my explanation.  There is no venturi in my example/drawing.  In fact, I stated there was more to the physics, including venturi effect, when analysing the entire duct used on the SOHC4.  However, until one can grasp and understand the basics/fundamentals, jumping into more complex aspects will not add to understanding, just add to confusion.

Regardless, the velocity of the fluid is the same in both the long and shortened tube/duct.  If venturis were added, equal venturis in equivalent positions would produce the same pressure drop in both cases, as a separate function to the pressure change within shortened duct lengths.  I believe Mystic pointed this out correctly.  Shortening the duct does not change the velocity, or a pressure drop contribution created by a venturi if it was included.
However, there is no need to add a venturi to this example in order to understand how the pressures change in a duct when it is shortened ahead of the jet ports feeding the duct.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Gaither

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2011, 06:30:07 PM »
From the chart, could we now simply state that Pods totally screw up the original/intended "venturi effect" AND the correct air/fuel mixture as was created by Honda's original air intake/filter design/s?

'Makes me very glad I ain't trying to run Pods and, I know nothing!

Great chart, LLoyd and well done.

However, since it is always a matter of taste/choice, some will run Pods and some will run the original air intake/filter system.

Now, getting back to exhaust/muffler options and related jet questions - - -  
Gaither ('77 CB550F)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2011, 06:38:10 PM »
Very informative, now taking this concept a step further what affect would this http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83895.0;topicseen have on the theory?
I don't understand the question.  Are you trying to change physics or use it to your advantage?  What physics are you applying to achieve your goal?
Aren't you still shortening the inlet duct that the carbs were originally tuned to accommodate?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2011, 06:47:44 PM »
From the chart, could we now simply state that Pods totally screw up the original/intended "venturi effect"
No, not from duct physics part one. I've only addressed the inlet duct change in length, and the pressure changes that reflects inside the duct. Venturis are not yet part of the physics discussion.

Now, if we go on to address how turbulence disturbs venturi action/jet port flow....  But, we're not there yet.  There are a lot more facets to scrutinize.

...AND the correct air/fuel mixture as was created by Honda's original air intake/filter design/s?  
Yes, this part I assert is true.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Cqyqte

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2011, 06:57:40 PM »
What I am asking is, if you added a tube inside the filter to in a sense lengthen the duct will it increase the vacuum level at the jet points more like in the OEM set up?

Offline Gaither

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2011, 07:09:16 PM »
Two-Tired

As I said, I know nothing!

I realize you didn't get into ventui or venturi effect. However, (forgive me) I anticipated you eventually HAD to go there. 'Didn't intend to get ahead of you - but I did.

Since '73, I have forgotten all but the very basics of  natural gas burners (particularly as applys to atmospheric) but I still recall a few of the basics of air flow rate, velocity, etc. and their relation to "venturi effect". And, I have "picked up" on your "natural love" for Pods. So, I just couldn't resist. 'Sorry.

I'll just sit back and observe (not wanting to display my basic ignorance any further).

You da man!
Gaither ('77 CB550F)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2011, 07:16:38 PM »
What I am asking is, if you added a tube inside the filter to in a sense lengthen the duct will it increase the vacuum level at the jet points more like in the OEM set up?
As stated in the original post, the stock duct effectively extends to the filter box inlet where atmospheric pressure is met.  Pods typically lop off 6-12 inches of duct, depending on the model being modified.

The pressure inside your air filter is NOT at atmospheric pressure (while engine is running).  It is something closer to what is created by the falling piston.  Atmospheric pressure is what exists on the outside of the pod filter membrane, or stock air box intake port.
Was my original post about this not clear enough?  I really tried not to add too many extraneous words so as to make it concise.

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline chippyfive50

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2011, 07:25:48 PM »
Perhaps a SOHC University section should be made where
Posts like this can live...

BTW TT, your new avitar is MUCH nicer than the ol' skeleton....
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Offline hesselfuzz

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2011, 09:37:34 PM »
OK, TT, I'm with you so far. What you are saying is that pods will lean out the mixture.
1) At idle, can't the mixture screw be used to compensate for this?
2) Then, the main jet also needs to increase in size for above idle, no?
Please continue
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2011, 09:52:42 PM »
1) Maybe
2) How much of an increase? You won't truly get your carbs properly tuned with ze pods on them until you run a dyno test with different jet/clip settings.

People think they can just pop on this site for their first or second post after they threw their airbox away, didn't know if the bike ran right in the first place and expect us to be able to tell them precisely what jetting combination will perfectly tune their bike.

And they get mad when we tell them #2. 
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Offline xedge4lifex

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2011, 12:32:14 AM »
its 7th grade math class all over again, confusing words, and i cant stop staring at the girl with the big boobs.
love the post
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Offline mjstone

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2012, 03:01:26 PM »
Did you ever do a Part II, Lloyd?

MJ
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2012, 01:44:48 AM »
Did you ever do a Part II, Lloyd?

MJ

No.   I got hung up on effective illustrations, and I lost my favorite drawing tool, forcing me to learn a new one.  I am working on it, sorta.  But, I also have some other major distractions that compete with it.
One being a carb adjustment checklist, which would logically follow.  Another being some house renovations/repairs...and on and on.


Then there is the forum faction that is anti-science (or perhaps anti-twotired) and just wants to argue, sling mud and such at logical analysis and education in general.  ...which seem to be far higher in number (or post count) than the ones interested in learning.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dave500

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2012, 02:09:53 AM »
keeping within the humour we like to have around here mjstone,,i can photo copy part two if you want,and email it as a pdf,if thats ok with Lloyd?

Offline mjstone

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2012, 05:55:51 AM »
Did you ever do a Part II, Lloyd?

MJ

No.   I got hung up on effective illustrations, and I lost my favorite drawing tool, forcing me to learn a new one.  I am working on it, sorta.  But, I also have some other major distractions that compete with it.
One being a carb adjustment checklist, which would logically follow.  Another being some house renovations/repairs...and on and on.


Then there is the forum faction that is anti-science (or perhaps anti-twotired) and just wants to argue, sling mud and such at logical analysis and education in general.  ...which seem to be far higher in number (or post count) than the ones interested in learning.

Cheers,

I can relate to the distractions bit myself,  got many of them as well.  I know how depressing some of the "anti-science" arguments can be and I hope it doesn't drive you away as your posts are something I always look forward to.  They are always full of well reasoned information.

If you decide not to post anything more of these lessons on the Forum, maybe you could get names and PM or email some more to those of us who are genuinely interested in what you have to say.  Let me know if you are going to continue this lesson.

MJ
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1973 CB500Four (Oliver)

Offline mjstone

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Re: Understanding duct physics Part one
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2012, 05:59:47 AM »
keeping within the humour we like to have around here mjstone,,i can photo copy part two if you want,and email it as a pdf,if thats ok with Lloyd?


I'll be waiting for that "photo copied pdf" , Dave.

MJ
1972 CB500Four (Honda)
1973 CB500Four (Oliver)