Author Topic: Clutch and oil ?  (Read 4176 times)

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KillerBob

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Clutch and oil ?
« on: March 31, 2006, 01:33:48 PM »
Hey everyone, spring is comming fast here in Saskatchewan and I'm lookin to getting my '76 CB750K ready to rock.  When fall came around my clutch started slipping worse and worse until it would barely crawl.  That's when I parked it for winter.  I later found out that the oil in it was not correct, I should have changed it because I had just bought it two weeks before, but was told it was good.  Anyways, I'm planning to rebuild the clutch and was wondering what is the best place online to get plates and springs, and what brand?  I went to the local honda dealer and they were $14 a plate...seems a bit expensive.  Also, what oil should I use when I change it?  I'm having trouble finding 10-40 mineral oil...everything 10-40 is just basic oil.  Thank you very much.

upperlake04

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2006, 02:46:04 PM »
Bob - howdy to another GWNortherner. You can find clutch parts at www.partsnmore.com/ that are less than $14. Do a search on this site on oil and you'll find way more info than you need. I think the basic  10-40  is OK, synthetics can cause troubles.

Offline Killer Canary

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2006, 03:05:23 PM »
My 550 started slipping so I bought a clutch kit, but before I put it in I consulted the manual and set the adjustment on the clutch cover.That took care of it and two years later I still haven't installed the clutch kit.Recreation supply in S'toon can set you up for under $100 if you need one.
If it's worth doing at all it's worth over-doing.
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upperlake04

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2006, 03:17:24 PM »
you killer guys are going to give us a bad rep :D

Offline Steve F

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2006, 06:45:54 AM »
Recently, I've been using Valvoline's motorcycle oil.  It's formulated for motorcycles with a "wet clutch".
I think it's available in 10W40 and 20W50 grades.  Get it at AutoZone in the Chicago area.

Offline nomadwarmachine

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2006, 08:07:23 AM »
Hmmm....clutches are not normally destroyed by using the "wrong" (read automotive) oil in these bikes.  It sounds like you may have a blown clutch, in which case replacement is the only solution, but you may also have a simple adjustment issue made worse by using a non-motorcycle oil.  If you can pick up some motorcycle oil, which is available at any dealership (Yamalube, Kawichem, Honda, it's all the same), you could try pouring that into your bike and tightening up the clutch -- if you're lucky, you may be able to save yourself a clutch replacement.  If not, you only spent $12 on oil, and you are right back where you started.

Offline Magpie

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2006, 08:31:29 AM »
You shouldn't be using any "energy conserving" oils because they have friction modifiers which will affect the clutch performance - make it slip. These are usually automotive oils.I believe these oils have an "EC"  rating on the oil bottle somewhere. Stick to a motorcycle specific oil. As for synthetic oil, I have used it my ST1100 and my CB750. Both bikes may sit for awhile between rides and the synthetics cling better so the start ups may not be as dry as with petroleum based products. For way too much info on oil you can got to http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html
My opinion only.
Cliff.

Offline Jonesy

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2006, 10:40:59 AM »
I was told by the local Honda dealer to be careful which motorcycle oil you use (at least for Honda bike oils) as they offer some formulations with Moly. These are intended for the newer sport bikes that use dry clutches. The counterman said if I used the Moly oil, it would ruin my wet clutch and I should go with the non-Moly formulation instead.
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Offline nomadwarmachine

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2006, 10:52:04 AM »
Apart from Ducatis, what modern sport bikes feature dry clutches?  ???

Offline crazypj

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2006, 10:18:58 PM »
Most modern sport bikes use a fiber based clutch plate which gives a more consistent feel and engagement compared to the old cork based plates. Just not too many people like the idea of having 'paper' plates for a clutch.
 They will self destruct real rapid if not soaked in engine oil before use..
PJ

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forgot to mention that they are all wet clutch from factory (at least the Japanese ones)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2006, 12:11:07 PM by crazypj »
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Offline Jay B

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2006, 07:01:57 AM »
Apart from Ducatis, what modern sport bikes feature dry clutches?  ???

Don't know about sportbikes but the only ones I know of with dry clutches are BMW and maybe Moto Guzzi. Don't know much about Guzzi's though. A BMW clutch is different than other bike clutches in that it is a dry single plate clutch. It looks exactly like a miniture version of a standard automotive clutch. I had mine apart last winter to lube the transmission splines, a 6-8 hour job.
Jay
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KillerBob

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2006, 05:21:06 PM »
Thanks guys, I'll try the oil and adjustment first and hope for the best...I'll let you know in a few days.

Offline Jonesy

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2006, 05:49:40 PM »
Most modern sport bikes use a fiber based clutch plate which gives a more consistent feel and engagement compared to the old cork based plates. Just not too many people like the idea of having 'paper' plates for a clutch.
 They will self destruct real rapid if not soaked in engine oil before use..
PJ

Modified,
forgot to mention that they are all wet clutch from factory (at least the Japanese ones)


Maybe that's what the guy meant. I remember him saying they had different clutches, so I thought he meant a dry clutch setup. I didn't know they use a different friction media. Huh! :P
"Every time I start thinking the world is all bad, then I start seeing people out there having a good time on motorcycles; it makes me take another look." -Steve McQueen

Offline jbailey

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2006, 08:03:13 PM »
anybody heard of a Honda that goes by the name "goldwing"?  It has a dry clutch.  Why would Honda make oil for use in a Ducati?  Maybe.........it's for a Honda!

Synthetic oil will NOT harm your bike, but MOLY will.

"Motorcycle" oil is the biggest joke in the history of motorcycles.

I need to buy stock in a "motorcycle" oil company.  Imagine buying oil wholesale and repackaging it in bottles with little motorcycle cartoons on the label and charging four or five dollars a bottle and having people actually buy it and perpetuate the myth that it is "special".

PEOPLE!  do yourself a favor.  Get some education regarding your hobby.  The money you save will pay for some nice accessories.
1975 Honda CB550K
2005 Kawasaki ZG1000 Concours

Offline jbailey

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2006, 08:21:50 PM »
When I worked for ExxonMobil I found out some interesting facts on oil.  There are only a few "manufacturers" of motor oil.  There are many "brands" of motor oil.

You figure out where the magical "motorcycle" oil comes from and you will be on the way to saving yourself a pile of money!

Now lets here from the "experts".
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2006, 08:22:38 AM »
i agree,my brother had a thing for years on using "harley-davidson" oil,i told him he was wasting his money.
mark
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eldar

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2006, 08:36:42 AM »
Gotta go with bailey. Oil is oil. It is the additives you need to watch for. Moly, energy conserving, these do not work with wet clutches.
If synthetic was bad, then why is there synthetic motorcycle oil?

Again, it is the additives that make an oil unsuitable.

Standard oil is fine, synthetic is fine

Do not use oils that say "energy conserving" or that have moly in them!

72cafe

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2006, 08:46:51 AM »
At what point (visually) should the clutch be rebuilt? I pulled mine last night and it seems to be pretty good. The grooves are still there and I didn't see any low spots. Should I re-oil it and call it good?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2006, 10:40:04 AM »
Oil, religion or science?

30 years ago, the difference between the oils on the shelf labeled for auto use and those labeled for Motorcycles, was moot.  This was before the EPA's successful campaign to remove heavy metals from automobile exhaust.  After removing lead from fuel, they still noticed zinc in the exhaust discharge, also a heavy metal that interferes with catalytic converter function, and convinced the auto and oil industries to reduce or curtail its inclusion in the oil additive package. 

Who cares?  Well, operators of machines other than automobiles should.  Why?

The base stock petroleum oils are indeed few in number of available manufacturers.  What differentiates some, but not all, labeling is the additive package blended with the oil before it is bottled.  While the exact same oil and additive package can appear with different labels.  Oil blends suitable for engines with integrated transmissions are not on the list of suitable oils recommended by todays auto manufacturers due in part to EPA influence.

Just like lead was a good lubricator of non-hardened cast iron valve seats in fuel.  Zinc is a very good anti-wear additive for meshing transmission gears.  The synthetic additives that make oils behave as thicker oils when heated (multigrade oils) are called long chain molecules.  These long chains are chopped up in transmission gears over time and the oil then loses its thick oil behavior and reverts back in properties of its much thinner base stock.  This thinner oil is just not as good at cushioning the high load gear tooth faces as thicker oil does.  However, zinc does provide a surface antiwear coating similar to what heavier grade oils can provide.   Most autos don't need the zinc as they have separate chambers to house a lubricant suitable for transmission use.

When modern formulations of auto oil are used in motorcycles, it's multiVis properties are rendered useless after a couple hundred miles.  If you reduce your oil change interval three or fourfold, your transmission should wear as well as if you used an oil with a zinc additive such as those labeled for motorcycle use.

I believe it is unfortunate the oil distribution marketing departments foster and rely far more on the religious aspects of oil purchasing habits, rather than the more informative scientific approach regarding machine needs.

Indeed, the recommendation to "Get some education regarding your hobby" is indeed a good one.
But hey, it's your transmission, put whatever you want in it.  Moly is a good replacement for the zinc for all the sliding and shearing forces in the engine/trans.  Pity it also makes the clutch slip, too.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline jbailey

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2006, 08:01:59 PM »
Check the specs on a good "diesel" oil compared to a "motorcycle" oil and you will see the zinc, phosphorus and other needed additives are in fact still there like good old "car" oil used to be in the seventies.

I use Rotella T synthetic (5w-40) in my '75 550.  My son uses it in his '73 450, 2004 kawasaki Ninja and 2006 Suzuki VStrom.  I also use it in two of my cars (the other is under warranty and calls for 5w-20) and my son uses it in his car.

At about $14 a GALLON at walmart, it is a bargain.

I have also used the conventional Rotella T (15w-40) and my son has used it in his Honda.  This sells for under $7 a GALLON at walmart and is a great "motorcycle" oil if you want to save some cash.  It is basically what Mr. Honda expected us to use, zinc and all. I would assume that Honda, Suzuki and the rest are essentially "diesel" oils specially packaged.  There are only so many additives that can be manipulated in any motor oil depending on what the customer needs (or the EPA in the US) and none of them are magical in their use in motorcycles.  It's all in the marketing.

Rotella has a forum which includes one specifically for motorcycles.  Check it out:
http://www.rotella.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=Motorcycle
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Offline jbailey

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2006, 08:05:56 PM »
By the way, I do NOT work for, or hold stock in Shell Oil Company.  I'm just cheap!
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WiredForStereo

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2006, 08:09:53 PM »
I agree that education about your hobby is a must, I have never had a hobby that I didnt investigate to the nth degree.
As far as oil goes, I use AMSOIL, and here's the education.  AMSOIL's base stock is made by Mobil, but the tests show that AMSOIL's additive package out performs Mobil as well as all other brands.
Also, AMSOIL is the only motorcycle oil that I know of that meets API GL-1 gear oil requirements for motorcycle transmissions.
The end truth though is that you can use whatever oil you like.  I hear people brag about not having a problem after running for x0,000 miles without changing the oil in their bike.  My only thing is that I really dont wanna buy that bike when he's done with it.  :-\
Use high quality oil, take care of your investment and expect your bike to last a long time.  Remember, do your homework and expense does not equal quality.

Offline jbailey

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2006, 08:25:45 PM »
Amsoil is great stuff.  My local Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha/Kawasaki dealer actually stocks it.  I have never tried it in my bike, but I use the MTG transmission fluid in one of my cars.  The spec calls for Castrol Syntorq LT of GM synthetic syncromesh fluid.  I tried several alternatives because GM wants $22 a quart!!!!! for it and Castrol does not sell Syntorq in the US in quart bottles.  You can buy a drum of it, but that's not very practical for the shadetree mechanic.  Anyway, the Amsoil is $8.55 a quart and works great.  The only drawback with amsoil is getting it.  If it was stocked by more local dealers or parts stores, I would probably be more inclined to try it.

By the way,  all you tightwads,  Sam's club sells a case (6 gallons) of Rotella T conventional (15w-40) for $33 and some change.  That makes it a little over a buck a quart.  You can not find a better bargain than that anywhere!  Buy the case and change it every 1000 miles and you will be way ahead of the game.
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2005 Kawasaki ZG1000 Concours

WiredForStereo

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2006, 08:38:53 PM »
True, I have rarely been able to find stores that stock Amsoil, so I got a Preferred Customer Membership to save like $2 per quart and just buy it online.  It costs $20 a year but I have a bike, mower, 4 stroke weedeater, Toyota Corolla and Toyota Pickup that all run Amsoil, so it makes it well worth it with filters and grease and all.

eldar

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2006, 07:44:55 AM »
The amsoil last much longer than most oils too. you end up saving really since you do not need to change as often.

Offline Lumbee

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2006, 12:59:19 PM »
...damn, ya'll check out the skillz this dude has in the rotella link posted above...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8546620822104739126&q=ducati

 :o
« Last Edit: April 06, 2006, 05:41:32 AM by The great "Lumbee" »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Clutch and oil ?
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2006, 06:44:04 PM »
Castrol is a mineral oil. Torco is a petroleum base with modifiers to simulate mineral.
Honda's old "HondaLine" oil was a mineral-based type, with ABSOLUTELY no detergent. (Made the cases get real dirty inside!)
Mineral oils are "low detergent" oils.

Valvoline's "racing" oils (non-synthetics) are low detergent, but not mineral-based oils.
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