Author Topic: off idle carb tuning ? stumbling/ stuttering  (Read 4667 times)

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Offline Silverback

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off idle carb tuning ? stumbling/ stuttering
« on: August 13, 2010, 01:40:51 PM »
This is a cb750 w/657B carbs.
I have:
Synced the carbs
Cleaned the carbs (Very clean)
Timed statically and with light
Points adjusted
New coils, caps and wires
Valves and cam chain tension adjusted (The quietest CB750 I have ever heard!)
Advance seems to work properly (stalls with motor just before 2K and them zooms on up and times perfectly between the timing marks)
I even installed a Power Arc ignition with the same stumbling results
Tank is completely rust free and filter is not clogged

Motor has the following: (fresh and complete top end re-build)
Ported/polished 77K head
78F pistons
stock valves, springs, etc.
No other performance parts (maybe cam?)
Pods (I know!!!)
Yoshimura replica exhaust (baffle in)
D8EA plugs

Carbs:
130 mains
40 pilots
stock needles raised one from center (richer)
Air screws 3/4 to 1 turn out
(Plugs look perfect)

At 1500 to 2000 RPM I am getting a stumble off the line and some very minor stumbling if my RPMs drop below 3000. Runs and idles great otherwise. I can lower the idle to 900 if desired.
It seems as though the bogging happens just as the needle begins to rise. I have tried several needle settings to no avail, as well as different fuel mixture settings.

Question: I know the mains are primarily for full throttle fueling, but wouldn't they effect the fueling off idle since the mains are part of the throttle valve, and are the fuel source which is metered by the needle? Thinking of going down a size to see if it helps since the 130 jets are on the "safe" side.

I just put the cam that was in there back in. However, this motor had an ART 836 big bore, heavy duty springs and titanium retainers. (One of the pistons was holed). When inspecting the cam, it appears as though it could have been a re-grind as it had discernable ledges on the lobes. I have several cams sitting around and it did not look too crazy, if it was re-ground. I did not measure it. Stamped on the valve cover were the clearances (.005 and .007) and the cam towers and caps had been blueprinted. Obviously this motor was being pushed hard.

Question: Could the cam characteristics be preventing good response off the line?

I have tuned various types of carbs with great success, but this is baffling me. I can deal with it, but I tend to be a perfectionist when it comes to tuning because I like to set it and forget it.

Chris
"It's hard to define soul. You get it in art. You get it in music, and occasionally you get it in machinery."
78 CB750F racer
78 CB750F stock
75 CB750K Baby Blue Sold (She was a great bike!)
71 CB750K (rusty rod)
77 cb550F Sold :(  Bought it Back :)
Basket case 73 CB750, 77 CB750F (Building now)
01 Aprilia Falco
76 kz400
96 BMW K1100LT

Offline Silverback

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Re: off idle carb tuning ? stumbling/ stuttering
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2010, 08:29:56 AM »
Well, I did some more work on the bike trying to fix this. Surprised there was no input since it was one of the best outlined "I have a problem" threads I have ever seen.  ;) The best result was had when I disassembled and lubed the advance mechanism. Most of the stutter has disappeared, so I guess there is a bit of carb tuning needed to eliminate the rest.

Lowering the mains helped a bit, but the full throttle tuning suffered. A change in the needle taper would probably do best, but I think I can live with it now.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 08:32:20 AM by Silverback »
Chris
"It's hard to define soul. You get it in art. You get it in music, and occasionally you get it in machinery."
78 CB750F racer
78 CB750F stock
75 CB750K Baby Blue Sold (She was a great bike!)
71 CB750K (rusty rod)
77 cb550F Sold :(  Bought it Back :)
Basket case 73 CB750, 77 CB750F (Building now)
01 Aprilia Falco
76 kz400
96 BMW K1100LT

Offline brett_bike

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Re: off idle carb tuning ? stumbling/ stuttering
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2010, 09:19:49 AM »
My CB500 sputtered of idle when it was running too rich.  I installed a 38 slow jet (from a 40) and lowered the needle 1 position.  Now she pulls smooth off idle and all through the range.

Uni foam filter
MAC 4 into 1 exhaust
All else stock

Different bike so I'm not sure how much it helps but, maybe it will give you an idea of which direction to go.

Offline HedNut

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Re: off idle carb tuning ? stumbling/ stuttering
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2010, 10:13:12 AM »
I'd say that's it man....sounds like you're running rich in the lower RPM's.
1)Try going leaner on the slows...
2)If not enough...drop your needles down one more notch...
3)If still not enough....next step is to drop a size in mains.

Just my two cents!?...good luck and keep us in the loop!!

(I dropped in these two lil' "general" carb tuning charts....a pictorial depiction of what "carb' variable" has effect in which part of the throttle/rpm range...helpful if you've never seen them before)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 10:17:30 AM by HedNut »

Offline flybox1

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Re: off idle carb tuning ? stumbling/ stuttering
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2010, 10:24:19 AM »
give us a plug chop at 2000 rpm, right in the meat of the studdering, and post the pics of your plugs....
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: off idle carb tuning ? stumbling/ stuttering
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2010, 10:36:20 AM »
Is the complaint about response to throttle changes or does the problem occur at steady rpm settings?

What kind of vacuum levels are you pulling where the problem occurs?

If it is about throttle change response, what percent of travel are you giving it when it stumbles?


Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Silverback

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Re: off idle carb tuning ? stumbling/ stuttering
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2010, 11:25:08 AM »
I'll have to throw some new plugs in there before I do the plug chop.

The complaint is that at slight, but consistent throttle openings the revs begin to rise, but once they hit about 1800RPM it would just hang there. Another slight turn on the throttle would take it right past. So, I would get a stumble to instantaneous free revs. A more aggressive turn on the throttle takes the revs right through without hesitation.  This is mainly a problem from stops as I don't generally use these throttle openings while riding. The stumble transition to easy reving requires me to keep a close eye on the clutch when turning at intersections as the instant revs would kick in mid turn. Sounds like a rich condition, but if I turn my air screws any further out my plugs show very lean conditions. I am currently getting some popping on decel and shifts, which generally indicates lean conditions, but the pipes on there are very free flowing and slight popping is not that abnormal for these pipes.

Like I said, cleaning the advance unit had a positive effect and the hanging is minimal now. I have a stock air box on the way.

I'll have to hook up my vacuum lines again to answer the vacuum question.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 11:26:46 AM by Silverback »
Chris
"It's hard to define soul. You get it in art. You get it in music, and occasionally you get it in machinery."
78 CB750F racer
78 CB750F stock
75 CB750K Baby Blue Sold (She was a great bike!)
71 CB750K (rusty rod)
77 cb550F Sold :(  Bought it Back :)
Basket case 73 CB750, 77 CB750F (Building now)
01 Aprilia Falco
76 kz400
96 BMW K1100LT

Offline TwoTired

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Re: off idle carb tuning ? stumbling/ stuttering
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2010, 12:12:10 PM »
Your description sounds like turbulence reaching into the carbs.  The modal length of the turbulence effects, alternates the pressure at one or more of the fuel outlet into the carb throat relative to the velocity of the air in the carb throat.  Since the carb throat pressure relative to the outside atmospheric pressure determine. the fuel flow rate though the metering orifices, the alternating eddies from turbulence change the flow rate at the exit points.

If you wish to keep the pods, you might experiment with a coupler tube extension moving the pods an inch or two from the carb mouth.  Or ensuring that the pods don't don't have sharp inner edges for the air to trip over before entering the carb throat, and/or checking that the inner diameter of the pods match the inner diameter of the carb throat entrance.

However, the stock air box arrangement does a pretty good job of minimizing turbulent flow for general street use.  It also helps the depth of the carb throat vacuum promoting strong draw on the fuel metering circuit exits.  The drawback for your application will be at or near red line where your inlet velocities are higher than what the stock engine used.  I would try to open the air box inlet by widening the scoop or increasing it's opening height.  And perhaps an extension collar to allow double stacking of the air filter.  Both should also help at the high end induction velocities.
Of course, you will still have to find the correct jet and metering orifices for the various throttle positions.  But, once done you should have a fun street bike.

That's my armchair analysis, anyway.   ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Silverback

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Re: off idle carb tuning ? stumbling/ stuttering
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2010, 12:01:11 PM »
Well, a bit of progress. I tried several options regarding the intake side of things. I  used velocity stacks alone and velocity stacks with pods. The stacks took the pods about 1.5" away from the carb body. I was not able to get rid of the stumble, but there was an overall improvement in transition between throttle positions. So, I decided to try and get the needle to the middle position (one notch leaner than current settings). I went up to 135 mains (Tried these without dropping the needles and still got the stumble) and dropped the needles. I carefully inspected the needles and they look as new with no wear. Off throttle is much better now and the bike is much quicker at lower revs up to just over 1/2 throttle opening. However, I am now lean at about 3/4 throttle. I'll be throwing in some 140 mains this evening to see what happens. I had thought I was good with the 130 mains, but there was power left. The 135 mains pulled even better, so hopefully there is room to go to the 140s. These ported heads seem to like a lot of fuel, but man does it have some balls above 6500RPM.

Looking at the rubber piece used to attach the pods there is a v shaped lip facing outward, into the inner cavity of the pod (peak facing out, splitting the air), and ribs on the inside of the tube itself. I guess they are there to provide grip to the carbs. I am sure this is not good for air flow. So, I happened to have the old bread box filter setup sitting around, and low and behold, they have great velocity stacks that are offset to match the intake ports on the carbs. After measuring the diameter of the flute, I realized that this was the same diameter as the inside of the pod filter. I was able to combine the two to get what I would think is the best of both worlds. As stated above, overall transition through throttle openings is much better and idling seems to have improved (smoother) a bit. It still, and has always been able to idle at 900RPM, no problem.

I'll report back with further results. I hate dead end threads!!
Chris
"It's hard to define soul. You get it in art. You get it in music, and occasionally you get it in machinery."
78 CB750F racer
78 CB750F stock
75 CB750K Baby Blue Sold (She was a great bike!)
71 CB750K (rusty rod)
77 cb550F Sold :(  Bought it Back :)
Basket case 73 CB750, 77 CB750F (Building now)
01 Aprilia Falco
76 kz400
96 BMW K1100LT

Offline wick

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Re: off idle carb tuning ? stumbling/ stuttering
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2011, 05:20:01 PM »
 :o
yo- so was- that the final fix- I have- the exact- stumble- going- on i have all oem- NEW- hondA- needles jets ...and= my motor- is the same as yours-- but with 150- mains..................?
?


Offline Silverback

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Re: off idle carb tuning ? stumbling/ stuttering
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2011, 07:17:30 PM »
I actually settled in on 155 mains and I don't think that 160s would hurt it much. Remember, I do have ported heads on this bike. Needles are second from the bottom. The use of the velocity stacks inside the pods smoothed the off idle issues a good bit. I have also switched exhaust pipes. I was using the Yosh replica, but now have 4 into 2 drag pipes that have my home brew Yosh cans on them. That also helped with the stumble. It also turns out that I have a lumpy cam in this motor. Didn't realize it was hard welded and reground when I first put the motor together. My air screws are set just at 1/2 out. I will be putting in some bigger slow jets to get the adjustments out a bit, and after I have participated in the Relay Rally. It revs through the low RPMs very smoothly and is running great!

SO, velocity stacks and the change in exhaust helped out quite a bit, but I think the cam will always give me that little hesitation feeling off the line.
Chris
"It's hard to define soul. You get it in art. You get it in music, and occasionally you get it in machinery."
78 CB750F racer
78 CB750F stock
75 CB750K Baby Blue Sold (She was a great bike!)
71 CB750K (rusty rod)
77 cb550F Sold :(  Bought it Back :)
Basket case 73 CB750, 77 CB750F (Building now)
01 Aprilia Falco
76 kz400
96 BMW K1100LT

Offline wick

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Re: off idle carb tuning ? stumbling/ stuttering
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2011, 06:25:32 PM »
yo-` silver`

i finally-  got a fix-  i had to back my air/fuel screws out- to  1.5 full turns out..
plus- new needles- if your needles are old- 5yrs plus-  get new oem- hondas- and IT will FIX- all stumble---- I was amazed- my old needles looked perfect- to the naked- eye.~!but wernt/
`cheers`  ;D