Topic: Front wheel axle is too short???

[DarcyCB400F]

Hey Jamie! Can I buy you a beer??? Thanks very much for this info as it is VERY HELPFUL to say the least!!
Your measurements are exactly what I needed. The 7" spread on your forks is exactly how I measured mine which are 3/16 farther apart. The spacer is exactly the same... Thanks again! You have above and beyond! 

Now it's very obvious that my axle assembly is fine.

I believe my forks are straight because when I spin them in the triple tree "TT", the spread at the forks studs remains unchanged. I will take them apart and roll them as a last resort but I think I need to look closer at the triple tree.

MCrider and MarkM have pointed out the TT may be the problem...

Insert Quote
Could the yokes/triple clamps be twisted?
I would slacken off the bottom yoke pinch bolts, and the end caps holding the spindle and bounce the front end to square it all up.
If the yokes are twisted then the gap between the fork ends will be larger than if the whole setup is square.
End Quote


I am going to take a closer look at the TT and the steering stem and yokes for obvious reason that these members have posted. The steering stem clamps seem to be lined up nicely with the yokes as the fork tubes slid right in without binding. Even 1/16 out of alignment in these could result in 3/16 at the fork leg couldn't it.

Is there any adjustment in the steering stem or yoke clamps that would me to align things better?? MarkM mentioned bouncing the front end to settle everything in to square...

[MCRider]

Ask Jamie what is the width of the tubes immediately below the lower TT clamp? Maybe your entire front end is off another bike? Or just the clamps. But both the upper and lower must measure the same width as the tubes would never go in if the clamps were even 1/16" different width.  Which would make us wonder about the instruments and headlight mounts.

Weird.

[-CB-Jamie-]

I'll take you up on that offer of a beer alright if you ever come to Ireland  Glad to help,

I just took another pic there of the forks just below the TT like MCRider suggested, the inside measurment seems to be just marginally under 5 1/2"

[DarcyCB400F]

My wife is packing her bag as we speak... she's always needed a reason to go to Ireland and now she has it... I guess I am coming too since I have family in Cork! 

Thanks for inside measurement too! I don't know what I'll do if mine is any different as I don't think there is any adjustment in the triple tree. Could I make a longer spacer for the axle and call it a day if all else fails??

[-CB-Jamie-]

There ya go now just gave ya a good reason to come to Ireland so, get here for next Thursday (St. Patricks Day) and we'll have lots and lots of beers.   what part of Cork have you family in?

I don't know about just making the spacer bigger, would that not mess with the alignment of the caliper with the disk, also the nut wouldn't be catching as many threads on the axle when you tighten it up because of a bigger spacer. I'm not too sure about it so somebody else might have a better idea about that.

[DarcyCB400F]

Hey Jamie, I would love to take part in St Patricks Day with you in Ireland! Guiness is my favorite beer even after 14 of them or so.
I am mostly alergic to Canadian beer... I always throw up after 14 or so.  

Anyway, I have figured out my axle issue!

I was discussing on the phone with a biker friend the issue and it was like a bolt of lightening when the solution came to me!
1) install and tighten speedo side clamp of axle as it should be positioned correctly
2) install rotor side clamp of the axle (but not tightly) after unscrewing the axle nut to get it to "reach" to it's correct position with the flange outside the clamp... Then tighten the axle nut untill the speedo side is drawn in against the speedo housing! Voila!! Tighten the rotor side clamp, hook up speedo cable, put the tools away and take it for it's first run down the street in 10 years!! Yah Baby!!!

Thanks for all your help guys!! you got me thru it for sure!!!!

[Kevin400F]

I was discussing on the phone with a biker friend the issue and it was like a bolt of lightening when the solution came to me!
1) install and tighten speedo side clamp of axle as it should be positioned correctly
2) install rotor side clamp of the axle (but not tightly) after unscrewing the axle nut to get it to "reach" to it's correct position with the flange outside the clamp... Then tighten the axle nut untill the speedo side is drawn in against the speedo housing! Voila!! Tighten the rotor side clamp, hook up speedo cable, put the tools away and take it for it's first run down the street in 10 years!! Yah Baby!!!

Thanks for all your help guys!! you got me thru it for sure!!!!

Bad method; the axle nut should be tightened to spec before the wheel ever gets near the forks.  Doing as you described has at the least put the forks in a bind, and could potentially cause issues with the front brake.  Please get someone who knows what they are doing to come help you fix whatever is wrong.

Kevin

[DarcyCB400F]

Thanks for your concern Kevin.
If you know I did it wrong, perhaps you could tell me how to do it correctly??
I sure would appreciate someone telling me the correct method of install.
Darcy

[MCRider]

Yeah, gotta agree with Kevin. The axle nut should be tight first. Drawing the fork together as you describe is definitely not right. All the pieces should fit together with no resistance.

Sorry we haven't been able to diagnose the problem, but the problem is still there, no doubt.  

Something is bent, almost for certain.

[DarcyCB400F]

Sorry guys, but I am going to ride (which isn't a lot at this time of year  ) until someone can tell me how to install the wheel/axle differently because I am 100% confident that what I have done is correct... even according to the Honda manual posted on this site... see 16-3 re Assembly
With due repsect, until someone comes up with a reasonable explanation/instruction (which I haven't received,to date), I see no reason not to ride.

NOTE: The fork legs were drawn in 3/16 of an inch = 3/32" per side... tell me that I am bending the forks to a dangerous point please.

[Kevin400F]

1. Put bike on center stand
2. Block under frame or engine to lift front wheel off the ground
3. Remove the front wheel.  Tighten axle nut securely
4. Remove the front fender to eliminate any possibility the fender bracket is forcing the forks into a misalignment condition.
5. Verify that the center-to-center distance between the axle cap studs is approximately 6-3/4 inches.
6. Install front wheel, with axle cap nuts just snug, not fully tightened yet.  Speedometer drive should be within approximately 1/16" of right side fork leg & axle clamp.
7. If necessary, loosen the upper and lower triple clamp bolts as well as the steering stem nut on top of the top triple clamp to re-position fork components to eliminate binding.
8. Tighten lower triple clamp bolts first.
9. Snug up the steering stem nut to remove any clearance.  Do not tighten fully yet.
10. Tighten upper triple clamp bolts
11. Tighten steering stem nut.
12. Verify proper spacing between speedo drive and right side fork leg.  If you still have excessive clearance as shown in your original photo, stop and lets figure out what is wrong.
13. If OK at this point, remove front wheel again to make fender installation easier.
14. Reinstall fender, checking for any evidence of binding or improper fit.
15. Assuming fender installation is satisfactory, reinstall front wheel

[MCRider]

I downloaded and read 16-3 of the manual. What stands out to me is this: (the download won't allow me to copy and paste, so I will take the time to rewrite it in quotes):
"Assembly
Install the side collar and speedometer gear box onto the wheel hub.

Coat the axle shaft with a small amount of grease and install the axle shaft.

Tighten the axle nut to the specified torque." end quote

This is all with the wheel off the bike mind you. The axle nut is fully tightened before being offered to the fork. No where in the manual does it describe a procedure like what you describe.

No where in suspension theory does anyone, especially not Honda, advocate putting a suspension in even the smallest amount, and i mean measured in thousandths of an inch, of a bind. 3/32 or 3/16 is way beyond the limits of acceptability. It may not present as an unsafe condition, on the surface, but anytime a suspension piece is not operating properly it goes to safety.

You have a problem. I'm sorry we couldn't sort it. I feel confident if i was there it would be sorted in minutes. Find someone who understands suspensions and let them look at it.  Please take this in the spirit in which it is offered, that as a concerned fellow biker. Ride it if you want, but something is wrong.
 

[DarcyCB400F]

I downloaded and read 16-3 of the manual. What stands out to me is this: (the download won't allow me to copy and paste, so I will take the time to rewrite it in quotes):
"Assembly
Install the side collar and speedometer gear box onto the wheel hub.

Coat the axle shaft with a small amount of grease and install the axle shaft.

Tighten the axle nut to the specified torque." end quote

This is all with the wheel off the bike mind you. The axle nut is fully tightened before being offered to the fork. No where in the manual does it describe a procedure like what you describe.

No where in suspension theory does anyone, especially not Honda, advocate putting a suspension in even the smallest amount, and i mean measured in thousandths of an inch, of a bind. 3/32 or 3/16 is way beyond the limits of acceptability. It may not present as an unsafe condition, on the surface, but anytime a suspension piece is not operating properly it goes to safety.

You have a problem. I'm sorry we couldn't sort it. I feel confident if i was there it would be sorted in minutes. Find someone who understands suspensions and let them look at it.  Please take this in the spirit in which it is offered, that as a concerned fellow biker. Ride it if you want, but something is wrong.
 

At the risk of being argumentative which is clearly no my intent but rather of understanding, please go to page 16-4 (pinch bolt style) for an instruction which explains axle install then axle nut tighten then clamp tighten. Sorry MC, I don't understand...

I will as soon as possible (maybe tomorrow) take Kevin's instructions to the letter and report back. I see the torque put on the lower fork tubes as insignificant at worst... but I will endeavor to follow your lead to ensure my safety.

[MCRider]

Yes lets stay civil and non-argumentative, agreed.

I saw that and I thought right away you may be referring to that. I am confused why it is even in the manual as you do not have a pinchbolt style front end. Do any CB400Fs have the pinchbolt style, I don't know, maybe in Europe. Anyway nothing about it applies to your install. You have the other style, which says to tighten the axle fully first, put the wheel between the forks and lower the forks onto the axle. They should hit exactly where they go. Put the clamps on the bottom and you're done.

Even if you had the pinchbolt style, with which i am also familiar, there would be no drawing together of the fork legs.

Kevin may be on to something. Hope you get a chance to take his lead.

And believe me, put some miles on that bike with the forks in a bind. Then when its fixed you'll feel the difference. (I think  )

[-CB-Jamie-]

Ya I'd agree with MCRider and Kevin400f about not pulling the forks together using the axle nut, you could have a different TT on this bike which could be wider apart and could possibly cause damage or safety issues.

If you do plan to ride it I'd put it back the way it was, because with the axle fully tightened on the wheel first the wheel cannot slide sideways even with the gap between the speedo drive and the fork and also your not putting any strain on the forks this way if they aren't bent. Although if it was me personally I probably wouldn't drive it til I got it fully sorted out anyway. Hopefully you do get this figured out before you drive it though.

One thing I would do straight away though is measure the forks at the TT, just measured mine now and they are about 6 7/8" centre to centre or 5 1/2" between them. At least if you do this you can determine if you have the right TT and it means your probably looking at a bent fork.

Good luck,
Jamie

[Mark M]

OK let me explain the forks twisted in clamps again.

If the top and bottom tripple clamps are not sitting perfectly square to each other, then the far ends (bottom)
of the forks will not be correctly located. They will be slighly further appart than normal. Because you can turn
the lowers on the legs it is easy to still get the spindle openings to line up but they will be further appart than
they should be.



 

[Kevin400F]

I rigged up a couple precision metal squares and confirmed the fork tube center-to-center distance is 6.77 inches, or 172mm.  See attached pic.

As we help Darcy get to the root of this problem, lets have him start with the basics and measure the fork tube separation in a similar manner directly below the triple clamps and also just above the fender.

Kevin

[DarcyCB400F]

I measured the fork spread today at the top of the fender and right under the lower clamps on the TT... 175mm center to center.
I used a couple of metal squares, clamped them and measured.
Seems I have the right triple tree.

[Kevin400F]

If your fork spacing at the lower triple clamp is actually 175mm, rather than the OEM spec value of 172mm, that could explain the problem.  Especially if the upper is still at spec width.  

3mm = 0.118" (nearly 1/8 inch).  If the lower triple is wider than the upper by that amount, it would translate to a much greater difference down at the axle.  

Are you 100% sure of your measurement?  If so, you need a new lower triple clamp.
 
Kevin

[Kevin400F]

Just curious...any updates on this?  Darcy?

[DarcyCB400F]

Not really, I left it alone.
Took it for it's first real ride today with zero issues.
I am not at all concerned in anyway that I am stressing or otherwise doing anything wrong in tightening the axle nut as I have posted earlier. (I could have tightened with my fingers if I could have reached it.)

After discussing with several of my biker buds who all agreed (with no heistation) that what I have done is perfectly acceptable and prescribed I have decided that I have installed the front wheel correctly.

I don't mean any disrepect or mean to be argumentative in anyway as I trully appreciate and value averyones opinion here on this forum!

Thanks for checking in Kevin!

[somesuch]

Not really, I left it alone.
Took it for it's first real ride today with zero issues.
I am not at all concerned in anyway that I am stressing or otherwise doing anything wrong in tightening the axle nut as I have posted earlier. (I could have tightened with my fingers if I could have reached it.)

After discussing with several of my biker buds who all agreed (with no heistation) that what I have done is perfectly acceptable and prescribed I have decided that I have installed the front wheel correctly.

I don't mean any disrepect or mean to be argumentative in anyway as I trully appreciate and value averyones opinion here on this forum!

Thanks for checking in Kevin!

You are adding stiction to the forks when doing it your way. It is wrong. The suspension will work better if you find the problem.

--Nick

[DarcyCB400F]

Like I said... I am not going to argue about it.

[Retro Rocket]

Like I said... I am not going to argue about it.

Darcy, he is not arguing, he's stating that if you used any pressure at all to line those fork bottoms up or like in your case, its not seating properly then your forks will have a small amount of side on pressure that will amount to some stiction where you fork tubes go into your bottoms and he is correct. This means that your front suspension will not work as it is supposed to and thats definitely not a good thing mate. Try and have someone that also has a 400 help you get it right. Close enough on a bike is NOT good enough....

[DarcyCB400F]

Like I said... I am not going to argue about it.

Thanks for your input guys but I am so done with this topic. I am not going to pursue or change what I have done or said. I have done nothing wrong!

Again... "thanks very much for your help" but I am done.