Author Topic: Temp vs. Starting  (Read 1530 times)

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gregboyd

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Temp vs. Starting
« on: April 06, 2006, 01:50:01 PM »
Q: How much does the temperature affect starting and battery?

I picked up my '75 cb550 two weeks ago.  The day I purchased her, she was running fine (enough enough for me) and I anticipated an routine maintenance regimen.  Life takes me on a detour and consequently it's been two weeks since I've had the time to spend on the bike. 

Lastnight I had a chance to dig in and remove the sissy bar and I had hoped to at least change the oil.  Sissy bar off in no time, I turn my attention to the oil.  I try to start it and all I get is sputtering and winding of the starter but no firing/turning over.  I keel banging away at the starter for a few minutes... then - duh.  The fuel was switched off. I was all excited to start her up for the first time in my possession and forgot starting a motorcycle 101.  I kick it to reserve - but by now more of the same as I'm sure I've killed the battery.  How long 'should' a battery/bike reasonably sit (in unheated shed here in NY) and then not start?  Would the cold weather in the past two weeks really cause this much degrading and would simply trying to start it when the temp is in the low 40's really cause an issue?

One more thing.. I just thought of this...  Sometimes writing this all out really helps!  When I rolled it off the truck, there was fuel coming out of I think the overflow lines from the float bowls.  Could the extreme incline angle (picture lifted Ford f150 with a 6 foot ramp!) simply dumped the fuel out of the bowls? (I guess I need to open the drains and check!)  Sigh.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Temp vs. Starting
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2006, 02:49:51 PM »
I didn't see any reference to using the choke, but will assume you did. You should be able to start it relatively easily even down in the 40's using the choke and assuming a good state of tune.
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Offline DrMark

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Re: Temp vs. Starting
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2006, 03:49:09 PM »
Here in Iowa...anytime below 45 degrees, I kick it over a few times with the key off and full-choke first. Then turn the power/key on..use the starter...fires right up after 2-3 seconds. Run with choke on for about 2 mins...then slowly push choke to off position and I'm good to go. Hope this helps.
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gregboyd

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Re: Temp vs. Starting
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2006, 04:35:13 PM »
Update:

I charged up the battery and gave it another go... still would not turn over.  Just the gigida giggida giggida from the starter.... and a blub blub from the pipes occasionally.  I checked the petcock and fuel is dropping in the reserve position.  So... there's fuel... I think I'm going to get a 1/2 gallon of fresh petrol and drop that in to just to be sure. 

Oh yeah... I did have the choke open... I'll try the kickstart method tomorrow  - I'm glad I saw that thread about no clutch w/neutral when kickin it  :D  I suppose the next step if that does not work... I need to pull the plugs and have a look.


Anyone else have any particular starting sequence I should try this weekend before I pull the plugs? 

Thanks!

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Temp vs. Starting
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2006, 05:29:25 PM »
Quote
Oh yeah... I did have the choke open...

It's probably just terminology, but when you say you had the choke open, do you really mean closed? Not sure what the choke arrangement is on the 550, but on my 750 the choke lever in the down position is "open" meaning the choke plates are raised and the carbs are not choked. When the lever is in the up position the plates are down and the carbs are choked.
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Offline csendker

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Re: Temp vs. Starting
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2006, 05:55:59 PM »
I've got a '75 550 too, but I live at the other end of NY (Buffalo, the Appalachia of the North!). 

Choke is a lever on the carbs (no cable), and 'up' is choke closed, or the starting position.  'Down' is choke open, or the running position.  I know this because I started the season choke-dyslexic, duh.  Starting in the 40's is no problem.  I use the starter when it's cold, and have begun using the kicker after she's warmed up.  It doesn't take more than a minute or so before I have to open up the choke.  But until then, it's a bit ornery in the idle department.  I suspect it has something to do with my personal set-up, I think I need to adjust my points and do a light tune-up.

I recall reading here that cold is actually more favorable for a battery than warm.  However, a long period between any charge (running or trickle, etc.) will do a battery in.  Try charging it, I think the trick is wether or not it will then hold the charge.

Oh, and down is main fuel, up is reserve and horizontal is off.  I had to look for that one too.  How soon we forget after a long winter.
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Temp vs. Starting
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2006, 06:53:32 PM »
Quote
I recall reading here that cold is actually more favorable for a battery than warm.

Actually, cold reduces the batterie's efficiency, that is you would have less cranking time when it's cold than when it is warm.
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Offline csendker

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Re: Temp vs. Starting
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2006, 07:15:27 PM »
Bob; true, but doesn't a battery in storage prefer cold to warm?  As a fellow cold-weather dweller, I'm painfully aware of the impact cold has on a battery's performance.  I used to run a dual setup in my '68 big-block Catalina.  Always the start of a fun day when you have to fire up when it's -20F and you're parked outside.  However, I thought that it's actually better to store a battery in your garage (say an attached garage and cold, not freezing, like in a de-tached or a shed) than in your basement (warmer).  I can't remember why, just one of those things that sticks in the back of my head.
Actually runs --> 1975 CB550-K1
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Temp vs. Starting
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2006, 07:19:18 PM »
I've never heard that, but then I always take mine out of the bike and put in the basement in a small plastic tub with a maint. charger connected.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Temp vs. Starting
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2006, 07:52:40 PM »
A disconnected battery will lose about 1% of it's capacity per day.  Slightly more if it is connected to the bike's rectifier.  
The battery is a chemical converter.  The chemical action slows with lower temperature.  While this can help the battery last longer,  it also lowers it's peak output delivery potential.  You can expect lower voltages from the battery when cold.  
This is significant because the coils produce a spark voltage proportional to the battery voltage.  If the voltage is low enough, no spark occurs.  Remember this, as there are many other factors that can produce low voltage at the coils besides low temps.

1. The electric starter draws heaps of power and lowers the battery voltage in the process.
2. A cold motor has thicker oil, particularly if you are using a 20-50W, and the engine has more resistance to turning the crankshaft when cold.  This makes the electric stater draw even harder from the battery, lowering the voltage.
3.  The headlight draws power from the battery lowering the voltage.  The electric start button should turn off the headlight while the electric starter is engaged, but if you have a headlight/lighting switch turn it off for starting.
4. Old spark plugs require more voltage to spark then new ones.  This is a threshold thing.  The coils develop voltage only until the two plugs fire at once.  However, this assumes there is enough primary power on the coils to reach this firing threshold at the coils output.
5. It is possible that the spark plug cap resistors have failed.  These can open creating an additional gap that must be bridged in addition to the spark plug gaps in the cylinders.  More gap means higher required voltage potential.  CB550's usually have 10K resistors in the plug caps.
6. Resistor plugs seem more commonly available than the correct non-resistor plugs.  If there is an R in the plug number, there is an additional resistance to overcome before achieving spark at the plug gap that must be developed at the coils and derived from the battery voltage.
7. There are several connectors and switches in series between the battery supply terminal and the coils.  If any of these connection adds Resistance from oxides between the contacts, voltage is lost at each one.  If there are ten connections and each one loses .2 volts, the voltage the coils operate with is 2 volts less than intended.
8. Soot and excess fuel on the spark plug center electrode insulator can shunt the voltage at the electrode to the spark plug body (ground) without jumping the gap at all.  No spark no fire.
9. Measure the voltage across the point gap ignition on, with and without the headlight. See why I said to turn the headlight off?  Anything below about 9V is trouble.  If the bike won't start, take a look at points voltage with the electric starter engaged.
10.  Many of the above, if present, can combine and compound the low voltage presence at the coils.

Enough about electrical causes.  What about fuel?

I have noticed all my 550s are cantankerous and more subborn to start the longer they have sat without running.  Fuel flow has a cleaning effect in the carbs and all the little orifices and passageways get cleaned with this flow.  The carb bowls are vented to the atmosphere.  So, as the fuel evaporates it leaves residue and gummy deposits that upset smooth flow of fuel through the carbs.  The deposits plug things up eventually and the smallest orifice, the slow jet, usual suffers the most.  It doesn't take much gum to reduce an orifice size of .016 inch which is the slow jet.  However, the emulsion tubes for both the slow jet and the throttle valve also have holes about this size which flow air to premix with the fuel before entering the main carb throat.  When these holes change in size, the bike just doesn't run right, and starting the bike can be more problematic.

"When I rolled it off the truck, there was fuel coming out of I think the overflow lines from the float bowls."
This is not a good sign.  I would drain, catch, and examine the contents from each carb bowl.  Each has a drain screw.  Chunks larger than .016 inch are bad news for the slow jets and even smaller chunks can block the float valves from closing, raising bowl fuel levels so they overflow out those tubes.  If the bits are rust colored, you probably have a fuel tank issue to address.

My starting procedure. Continue on this plan until bike starts.
1- Headlight off.
2- Full choke (lever up on the early Cb550s)
3- Throttle (about 1/4, so the carbs can source fuel from the throttle valve, too.)
4- Electric start attempt for about 15 seconds.  If the bike hasn't run for more than 5 days and hasn't caught yet, I switch to kick startin order to save the battery and keep ignition voltage high.
5- 5-10 Kicks.
6- Throttle now goes to max
7- 5-10 kicks
8- Choke off, throttle still at max
9- 5-10 Kicks
10- Throttle at 1/8
11- 5-10 kicks
12- If the motor is trying but not staying lit, start over at #2 (skip #4 if battery is clearly weak).
13- If no encouragement from the motor attempting to run, it's spark check time, pull a plug sniff for gas, lay a plug on a cylinder and watch for spark.  If spark present and plug drenched in gas, its flooded.  Either wait awhile, or pull all plugs for inspection and kick lever the bike a few times to clear the fuel from the cylinders.  Reinstall plugs and remove air filter.  Begin again at #1.
If at any point the neutral lamp gets dim, suspend staring until the battery is recharged.


Sorry this got so long...

Cheers,










Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

gregboyd

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Re: Temp vs. Starting
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2006, 07:17:25 AM »
TwoTired - thanks!  Your post = a plethora of knowledge!  Thanks for all the advice everyone.

I know what you're all saying about the choke... I guess my thoughts were jumbled, but -  Yes, I had the bike choked.  I know that starting cold regardless of machine often requires choke and then you ease it off as the engine warms.

After work I'll be draining the bowls and checking the contents.  I'm also going to drain the gas that came with the bike and add my own 'known good fuel' and see what happens following your starting procedures and different throttle positions.  If she still won't start I'll take the route of plug checking/trouble shooting.  I think I'm just going to replace them with new ones regardless.  I'm sure the current ones were installed in 1994.

Meanwhile I'm going to de-rust the tank this weekend regardless of if she starts tonight or not - using the Molasses Method.  I'll be photographing the entire process and I'll be sure to make the summary and results available to all.  The rust is not extensive, but is enough to cause concern.  Any rust in the tank is cause for concern I think.   ;D  I was all about the oldmanhonda HLC etching method - even went out and got the acid and supplies... then I read about the molasses.  After research, I'm convinced this will be the safer, better way to go - esp with my lower rust levels.  The HCL may be overkill.

On an interesting side note - I found the original manual under the seat.  Tucked inside of it was the original owners registration and documentation from 1976! There was also a reg from 1994 as well - which I suppose is when he got thinking about the CB in his garage and decided to try and re-live the wild summer of '76  :D