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Author Topic: Nikasil coated 836 block?  (Read 7606 times)

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Offline NickO

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Nikasil coated 836 block?
« on: March 14, 2011, 02:45:37 PM »
Has anyone contemplated or actually made an aluminium lined and Nikasil coated block for an 836cc bore CB750 engine?

I'm looking to have a standard cylinder block modified to this end and would welcome any input and/or recommend an engineering shop to do the work.

I think it would be worth the cooling and tolerance advantage over a conventional iron lined block!
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2011, 04:48:37 PM »
i believe that member/racer Big Bob nikasiled his 750 racer bores.

look him up, might have some tips for you .

TG
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2011, 04:49:57 PM »
It's been done forever on two-strokes.

Well, not nikasil, but industrial chrome.
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2011, 05:57:15 AM »
Hi Nick, asil  :D :D Ron Philips at Fahron Engineering might be able to help.
I have his number but it's in my mobile in my mates truck and he's gone to work.
You might find it on the web but I dont think he has a website as sutch.
He's a mate of mine so mention my name.

Sam. ;)
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Offline Silverback

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2011, 07:48:29 AM »
I've had these guys do all my stuff in the past with no problems so far.
http://www.mt-llc.com/

I was thinking about using Nikasil on my 850. Ken at cycleX doesn't even sell a piston without his revolutionary slippery/cooling coating anymore. I have a set of pistons he did before he started coating everything piston related. I'm a bit worried! People usually don't modify their entire line of products for no good reason.
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Offline NickO

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2011, 11:06:36 AM »
Quote from: SamCB750A on March 15, 2011, 05:57:15 AM
Hi Nick, asil  :D :D Ron Philips at Fahron Engineering might be able to help.
I have his number but it's in my mobile in my mates truck and he's gone to work.
You might find it on the web but I dont think he has a website as sutch.
He's a mate of mine so mention my name.

Sam. ;)

Found his number Sam and gave him a call, but, unfortunately he cannot help on this job, but thanks for the heads-up! An engine builder here in the UK who does a lot with the CB350/450 twins is giving me a budget cost of £800. Not cheap, but I don't have anything to compare it with ???

Nick
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2011, 03:05:26 PM »
Quote from: mlinder on March 14, 2011, 04:49:57 PM
It's been done forever on two-strokes.

Well, not nikasil, but industrial chrome.

definetely VERY different processes.... ;)

Nick, would give ask those mt-llc guys for a quote, wouldnt be surprised if even after shipping back and forth, itll still be cheaper than europe.

was just talking the other day with a pretty famous italian tuner and he's getting so much done in the USA these days, he just got tired of European/Pound/euro prices...
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2011, 03:15:03 PM »
Quote from: turboguzzi on March 15, 2011, 03:05:26 PM
Quote from: mlinder on March 14, 2011, 04:49:57 PM
It's been done forever on two-strokes.

Well, not nikasil, but industrial chrome.

definetely VERY different processes.... ;)

Nick, would give ask those mt-llc guys for a quote, wouldnt be surprised if even after shipping back and forth, itll still be cheaper than europe.

was just talking the other day with a pretty famous italian tuner and he's getting so much done in the USA these days, he just got tired of European/Pound/euro prices...

It is a different process, but for similar reasons and results. I will probably go with nikasil on my bridgestone sr175 when I take it out to 200.
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Offline Big Jay

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2011, 10:48:42 PM »
One could make aluminum sleeves and replace the iron ones, then bore and plate them.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2011, 12:03:47 AM »
I have a nikasil coated billet aluminium block for my 1000cc SOHC build, much lighter and looks great, forum member Mike Reick had it done for me.
Its all wrapped up airtight at the moment but once i get it out for my build i will post pics....

Mick
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Offline NickO

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2011, 04:58:42 AM »
Quote from: Big Jay on March 15, 2011, 10:48:42 PM
One could make aluminum sleeves and replace the iron ones, then bore and plate them.

That's what I had in mind Big Jay.
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Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2011, 06:08:36 PM »
I live 7 miles from the MT facility..............They do several of the big name race team's boring work. I have only had a few standard bores done for me.......no nicasil in my budget.
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Offline Big Jay

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2011, 09:29:36 PM »
They have done literally hundreds of busas for us. They are the best.
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Offline NickO

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2011, 04:42:20 AM »
This is an expensive job to have done.

I've been quoted $1,300 by MT, approx. £800 by my engine builder here in the UK ($1,280) and another UK firm want £1,500 ($2,400)!!!!!!!!

Does anyone on here think is is worth the extra bucks over a simple re-bore, (to 836cc)?
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Offline NickO

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2011, 06:25:01 AM »
Quote from: lordmoonpie on March 17, 2011, 05:08:34 AM
Nick,
Have you spoken to Len Cooper at CAT security engineering re the nikasil coating?

Can this firm do the whole job? I assume you have used them before?
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Offline Silverback

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2011, 07:21:10 AM »
Most of that cost is in making the cylinders. Do you know a machinist? The cylinders are not that hard to make. Boring and plating alone usually cost about a 3rd of what they quoted you. If I did it, I would purchase the material to take to my machinist and only send the cylinders out for boring/plating.

Is it worth it? I guess that is all relative. Most of the damage I have seen in 836 kitted bikes is with the piston itself, and mainly due to poor tuning. I would probably only do it if I was going bigger than 836. JMO
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Chris
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2011, 08:35:42 AM »
Besides cost, a non so stupid detail to consider is that at least in theory, you should use different type of ring material with nikasil as the surface hardness is quite different to the plain iron.

at least in guzzis, nikasil rings are not same as iron rings.

another headache ? :)

Mike would know better....

TG

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Offline 754

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2011, 10:21:49 AM »
 You can do 2 836 bore-jobs for the price of the nikasil, I gotta ask why?
 other than the fact that the 1000cc, may be bigger than you desire, I would be looking at the bollet MReick block.. sounds more reasonable..plus he should be able to make an 836cc.

 I am thinking the onepiece + plated alum block, saves a bit of weight, improves heat transfer (more needed on big bores), and is more oiltight.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2011, 03:51:46 PM »
Quote from: 754 on March 17, 2011, 10:21:49 AM
You can do 2 836 bore-jobs for the price of the nikasil, I gotta ask why?
 other than the fact that the 1000cc, may be bigger than you desire, I would be looking at the bollet MReick block.. sounds more reasonable..plus he should be able to make an 836cc.

 I am thinking the onepiece + plated alum block, saves a bit of weight, improves heat transfer (more needed on big bores), and is more oiltight.

It is noticeably lighter Frank and i think it will also help with heat dissipation...
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Offline Phil

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2011, 12:41:48 AM »
My entire engine is with Len Cooper (CAT Engineering) and I have spoken to him about ceramic liners. I am not sure if aluminium liners are coated with ceramic, or the liners are made entirely of ceramic. He showed me a CB350 K4 race engine done this way and it's amazing. This is what the F1 engines use and he is involved in this. There is so little friction between the rings and liner and that's the main benefit, apparently. He dropped a  crank with pistons+rings into a set of cases and fitted the cylinder and you can spin the crank with your fingers - it turned 3 revolutions. There is some problem with the size of the CB750 cylinder which is why I haven't had it done - the cylinder is too big. Removable liners only but the CB350K4 cylinder is small enough. (Don't quote me please - I discussed it with Len last summer and he lost me with the technical stuff - he is a true race engineer and I am not!!). There must be easier/ cheaper ways to lighten a CB750 engine? Aluminium clutch basket, for example?
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2011, 04:43:39 AM »
Quote from: turboguzzi on March 17, 2011, 08:35:42 AM
Besides cost, a non so stupid detail to consider is that at least in theory, you should use different type of ring material with nikasil as the surface hardness is quite different to the plain iron.

at least in guzzis, nikasil rings are not same as iron rings.

another headache ? :)

Mike would know better....

TG


The aftermarket rings used by Wiseco and JE work fine in the plated bores TG.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2011, 04:45:38 AM »
Quote from: Retro Rocket on March 17, 2011, 03:51:46 PM
Quote from: 754 on March 17, 2011, 10:21:49 AM
You can do 2 836 bore-jobs for the price of the nikasil, I gotta ask why?
 other than the fact that the 1000cc, may be bigger than you desire, I would be looking at the bollet MReick block.. sounds more reasonable..plus he should be able to make an 836cc.

 I am thinking the onepiece + plated alum block, saves a bit of weight, improves heat transfer (more needed on big bores), and is more oiltight.

It is noticeably lighter Frank and i think it will also help with heat dissipation...
Yes...plus the reduction in friction and the closer piston to wall. You coat the piston skirts and it gets even better
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Offline kos

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2011, 06:00:19 AM »
Quote from: Big Jay on March 15, 2011, 10:48:42 PM
One could make aluminum sleeves and replace the iron ones, then bore and plate them.


Todd Henning did this a lot on his 350/450's and even a 750 or two.  His big reason was for less weight and they did not distort as much under heat load and did run cooler.


Anyone interested, contact Millenium Technologies and Bore Tech

KOS
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Offline Lykowsky

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2011, 10:22:25 AM »
Nikasil would be perfect as a low friction surface coating if the fact of corrosion involved due to contamination of sulfur in fuel would not be true.

in the other hand alusil would be substitute but who does coat cylinders with alusil in small quantities??
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Offline Lykowsky

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Re: Nikasil coated 836 block?
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2011, 09:58:12 AM »
Hi,

As I'm doing my personal research about cylinder liners coating with nikasil or hard chrome to extend reliability of our bikes.

What i have found out is that the chromium plated piston rings won't work well with hard chromed or nikasil plated cylinder bores and this will create only a mess because chromium plated rings have to break in with relatively soft bore material but just can't do the thing with coated surface which has up to 90HRc of hardness.

If you really want to coat your bores then use moly or tungsten carbide faced rings only.

Lykowsky
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