Topic: switching from dino oil to synthetic

[Barrett99]

I think I'm going to try the full synthetic oil, probably the Rotella T.  Any special way to change over to synthetic?  Should a syn blend be used as interim, then go to the real thing?  Or go straight to the synthetic from dino? 

Thanks.

[phylo101]

Hi

First of all - don't do it!!!!!

Next - the reasons

1/ its too thin under heat, doesnt "cling" isn't viscous enough to dissipate engine heat properly. Too thin for filters etc. Thats why its even dangerous to run 10W/40 in an engine thats designed for 20W/50.

2/ You CERTAINLY should not change from mineral to synthetic after any time of running one or the other, PARTICULARLY going from mineral TO synthetic. Mineral oil leaves deposits, enzymes, graphgite coatings etc throughout your engine. Its meant to. IF you run a synthetic now it A/ cleans all those out so they all go scratching around your engine B/ are no longer where theyre supposed to be, doing the job theyre supposed to do. Changing midlife from one to another will kill a motor in 10000 miles. And no flushing oil or interim regime will save you.

I know, Ive done it in my youth and paid the price.

phylo

[amattel]

There are MANY MANY opinions about this.  Do a search and you'll find lots of in-fighting about it in this forum.

I suggest you do your own research and make up your own mind.

Adam

[lrutt]

with the quality of dino oils these days, I'd stick with dead dino's. I run the Honda 20W50 in all 12 of my bikes. They run the gamut from old Honda's to old Triumphs to new Harleys and new Ducatis. The Honda oil is plenty good for any of them. Best to just keep using the dino oil in my opinion.

[HondaMan]

The only synthetic I had any luck with in the 1970s bikes was the Torco synth. The others always ruined the clutch plates, sort of like when you use STP. It sticks to the plates so well that they won't let the oil go, then they slip and heat up until they warp. The Torco, though, only came in 10w30, not heavy enough for the 500/550 wet sump engines nor for touring in the 750.

The Castrol always seemed to work best, quieting the engines and protecting the seals. I am a big fan of the 10w50 in cold weather and 20w50 in summer. The older style seals (crankshaft, countershaft) are also the wrong composition (Buna or Buna-N, not Viton) to hold in the synth oils, so everything would leak. Nasty.

The roadracers used it and liked it, but they used special clutches. I do not know for sure whether today's clutch plates can cope with the synth oil. I'll try to find out, though.

[jbailey]

My grandfathers cousins mother had a friend that used synthetic oil and all his hair fell out!

Most people die in bed so don't do that either!

I've been using Rotella synthetic for years in my '75 550.  Can't even begin to tell you how much smoother the shift is.  It's amazing that people on this board will complain about the clunk when shifting, but would never listen when you tell them how to stop it.  They would rather propogate myths and lies than do any intelligent research.  Synthetic oil will not harm your engine, clutch or transmission.  In fact it will protect and make them last longer.  Just do not use oil with molybdenum or "moly".  This is usually found in oils labeled "energy conserving" but is being used in more automotive oil lately.  If you want to be 100% safe, buy oil labeled for use in motorcycles, synthetic or not, it will be safe for your bike.  If your bike would destruct using synthetic oil, why would so many manufacturers face litigation by selling it?  This is 2006, the twenty-first century.  Wake up people, synthetic oil is far superior to ANY non-synthetic oil in ANY application.

[Bob Wessner]

Now let's be honest, wouldn't we all feel like we were missing something if this topic didn't come up at least once per quarter? 

[jbailey]

If synthetic oil was bad for engines transmissions or clutches wouldn't the manufacturers void your warranty for using it?  Name one manufacturer that does.  I'll even go as far as to say this applies to any car, truck motorcycle, lawnmower, boat motor, weed trimmer, chain saw or anything that runs with an internal combustion engine.  The only exception is a wankel or rotary engine such as the Mazda RX.

Check this link: http://www.pennzoilplatinum.com/

[bistromath]

Rotella T comes in synthetic and dino styles. The fully-synthetic version is a 5W40, which is too thin for these bikes. They do make a synthetic blend as well, which is dino oil with some synthetic mixed in.

The unbiased story seems to be that synthetic lubricates very well; too well, in fact, for most of our wet clutches, which tend to slip under load while using synthetic oils. There is no hard data on this point. It won't harm your engine but it might screw up your clutch.

Honda doesn't void your warranty for using synthetic oils because your warranty ran out thirty years ago, long before synthetic oil emerged. =D

[techy5025]

I have a solution to the oil question.  Simple....just run synthetic in the engine and
dino in the clutch....easy wasn't it.      Maybe a mixture in the transmission.

Jim

[hcritz]

Hey Guys...
I asked this question a while back and was really taken aback by the amount of hubbub it created. Seems there were two very distinct camps here.

I don't fall into either...I use Castrol in my RX 7 (rotaries shouldn't use synthetics) and I
I just switched over to Mobile 1 in my low milage 750...Their motorcycles blend wasn't available, so I used the heaviest auto type they had...
It's been a month and I've had no clutch problems...the only difference seems to be a slightly quieter engine at start-up and somewhat smoother shifting...no slips or drips.

After reading some of the post, I decided to do a bit of research...there are lots of sites that cover most of the issues here...
If you go to Mobile 1's website...they have quite a few articles on motorcycle use and the myths associated with it...clutch and leakage issues etc.
Their Motorcycle blend should be a very good product..and that's what I will use when I can find an outlet for it. I assume that their MC blend has additives for better transmission gear lubrication...
But basically...Any high quality oil that doesn't have friction modifiers....is changed regularly...will do quite nicely in these bikes...
Even the basic oils have come a LONG way since these bikes were built...Look at the service life of the cars we drive now...
30 years ago...100,000 miles was very HIGH milage...now we don't even think much about that...machining techniques are better of course...but quality lubricants are a big part of this. Our engines are a bit different...air cooled and higher RPMs...so somewhat harder on oils...Mobile even makes and oil for V-twins that the rear cylinder typically runs very hot.
I've driven aircooled cars for most of my 35+ years of driving...Porsches and Corvairs...I have a 64 Corvair Spyder(turbo charged) that now has over 380.000 miles on the engine with only one rebuild. I've used several types of oil through the years...Castol 20/50 seems to be the best at handling the heat loads. I've raced the Porshces with the Castrol as well and never had an engine failure due to lubrication. Missed shifts are a different story!<G>

SO...which ever camp you choose...change your oil and filter frequently...avoid (High Milage) oils...do a bit of reading too...There really may be better living through chemistry....

[byidesign]

I have a cb650sc 82 and have used either Mobil 1 or amzoil syn in it
   for the past 60,000 mi. with no ill effects, { since last overhaul]{rings top end+oil pump}
     bike  now has 141,113 mi. total, the new stuff stands hi temp much
       better. and i like the "Quiet"
              Bruce
     

[eldar]

There will always be 2 camps on this subject cause no one really has the answers.

I also do not see how a 5-40 oil is too thin. Honda recommends a 10-40 for the 750 anyways. So a 5-40 would be ok too. It would actually be better on cold starts.

synthetic oil is absolutely fine. phylo, that stuff from dino oil is called sludge. It is BAD.  Synthetic cleans this out and that is a good thing. as for seals, dont they fail anyways? If they fail, they needed to be replaced anyways right? If you put in the right synthetic, your engine will nto die in 10000 miles. it will end up in many cases, lasting longer.

but whatever people. use what ever oil you want. I have used both and both work fine but I have had better luck with synthetic in both cars and bikes. You just have to know what to use.

[WiredForStereo]

I dont understand how some of these myths get started.  So synthetic releases the junk from your engine.  Isn't that what a FILTER is for?  I personally had Amsoil STOP my head leaks in my CB650C.  And the clutch issue, Amsoil Motorcycle oil doesnt cause a problem there.  I have had syn in my pickup for 20,000 miles, and this on a 130,000 mile all original engine with a total of THREE oil changes on synthetic, (Amsoil can go 25,000 miles or one year per change.)

This is my second bike with Synthetic and I could not be happier.  I tried dino in my SL350 one time and did a 40 mile high speed run (70mph that is) and when I got to a stoplight, the clutch started sticking and the engine died.  This was with brand new oil.  That oil only lasted about 100 miles before I changed it back.  That is the last time I wanna be trying to kickstart a 35 year old bike in the middle of traffic.

The only recommendation I have is that you change your first batch of synthetic after about half the recommended interval that the Synthetic reqires the first time.  It's the filter you might wanna worry bout in that situation, not the oil.

[phylo101]

Ok, some points to answer....

Changing to synthetic on a young or low-mileage bike is FINE. I was saying not to do it on a high-mileage bike, and particularly an aircooled '70s classic where machining tolerances are not as close as they are nowadays.

No, was not referring to sludge, I know what sludge is and am damn glad to get rid of it. Thats not what I'm talking about, Im talking about the stuff that SUPPOSED to deposit around your engine, ask any oil company technician. A change to synthetic strips it out; no of course your filter catches it, its not that that kills an engine, its that the stuff I'm talking about - graphite deposits, enzyme layers etc.,  - NOT being there anymore that then accelerates wear.

And by the way, there IS a company that doesnt recommend synthetic oil. Aprilia regards its warranties on its 2strokes invalid if you run them on Silkolene synthetic 2stoke OR gearbox oil. Its in their warranty documentation. AND I've seen the results. Automatic low-mileage seizure no matter how used. And just think how many UK bike shops stock Silkolene rather than anything else....

Nor would I run ANY mtorcycle on 5w40 if the manual recommends 20W50. Thin synthetics are made for narrow-clearance modern liquid-cooled engines, not '70s big tolerance aircooled motors. Thats how it works well on LOW mileage engines from the off.

P.S. this is an "expert" opinion - Im a high-mileage motorcycle courier doing about 1000 miles a week, and all my own spannering...

phylo

[WiredForStereo]

With all due respect, do you know what an enzyme is?  There are NO enzymes in motor oil, and none are created in any breakdown process, much less from motor oil.  Do you know what graphite is?  There is no graphite in any common motor oil that I know of.  Here's how I know, graphite is black, only powdered graphite is ever used in engines simply because it would get caught in the filter if it were any larger.  Powdered graphite is BLACK, it turns oil BLACK.  It turns every thing it touches BLACK.  When you use a pencil, it turns the paper you write on BLACK.  SAME STUFF.  If there were any deposits, they would be BLACK.  Graphite is made of pure carbon, that's why it is BLACK, and no motor oil I have ever seen comes out of the bottle BLACK.

In AMERICA, a manufacturer may NOT specify a certain brand of product to be used on it's machine unless it PROVIDES said product.  Thats what we call LAW.

Bottom line, graphite is an aftermarket lubricant ADDITIVE, rarely included in any oil, and there are no enzymes to be spoken of.
So tell me, what is an enzyme layer? 
With all due respect, my expert opinion is that you fire your expert.
Don't insult my intelligence.

[kpier883]

This isn't empirical in any way...  At my last oil change I switched to Mobil 1 10w30 synthetic.  The clutch that was already slipping kept slipping.  The seals that leaked kept leaking.  Previously the bike had Honda brand oil.  I don't see a great deal of difference.  It does seem that the oil that leaks out is a little cleaner than the Honda oil. 

I finally changed my clutch springs and the slipping stopped.  I don't think the Mobil 1 is making much difference with the clutch.  BTW, my m/c shows about 14,000 miles - 7000 that I have put on it since I bought it with 6500 or so miles showing.  I have no idea if this is actual mileage or someone had to replace the speedometer at some time....

Good luck with the oil. 

By the way, is there a torque spec sheet for the 750 K4 online anywhere? 

[bistromath]

Calm down Wired, I think you're getting rather worked up over this. Remember -- it's just the Internet.

Anyway. I think he's talking about carbon deposits, and not graphite; graphite just being a particular lattice structure of carbon. And while enzymes probably won't form in your oil (unless you're creating life in your wet sump), acids in the oil are a very real concern.

Mostly it seems that people often complain of springing new oil leaks after using synthetics. The consensus seems to be that flushing out all the crud also flushes out the crud that was helping plug your leaking seals. I made the mistake of running a detergent oil once, and it did the same thing; leaked like a sieve for the next two thousand miles. Then the crud worked its way back in, and the leaks stopped.

[WiredForStereo]

Yeah, I know, but it just bugs me when people know not what they are talking about, at least you know what an enzyme is.

[byidesign]

I found with mycb650sc, that I didn't have a clutch slip problem
   nor on my 400's, but I don't really crank on them either.
     I switched to the synthetic mainly for the higher breakdown
    temperature.it's not overly hot in the northeast, but a lot
     of time spent in heavy stop and go traffic, at low speeds.
        figure any help is good.{oil is still cheap insurance}
            never heard of the "enzyme' thing either....
           Bruce

[eldar]

Well whatever a person wants to believe. All I know is I put synthetic in my old 82 nissan and it burned LESS oil and STOPPED leaking. I have put it in old IH scouts and it worked better than any regular oil. Those engines probably have LOOSER tolerances than our motorcycle engines do.

[byidesign]

i figure they do, and technology doesn't seem to go backwards.
   i switched everything, even my old mustang Conv. over to it.
     i did get crazy in the driveway a few yrs. back, and heated two pans of oil
     one Dino 10-40, and mobil #1 ,10-40 just to see,
       and got almost 90 degrees more  on the Mobil before it started to fry.
        I figured, it was good enough for me.
               {don't use the wife's good stuff to try it though.............}
 
                     Bruce

[WiredForStereo]

When I was back in school, we had a science fair and one of the guys did a similar comparison, only he also cooled the oils to see what they did.  Dino got gooey, but the synthetic stayed fluid, just as advertised.

People are always resistant to new things and tend to invent phobias to compensate for their fear.  For instance, cell phones cant create a radio wave capable of causing cancer, but ask the average Joe on the street, and he will prolly tell you something different.  I had my own brother tell me that microwaving food will give you cancer.  Microwaves use microwaves, as do cell phones, capable of exciting molecules to create heat, but not capable of oxidizing genetic material to cause cancer.  Similarly, people make up stories about synthetic, and I wouldnt care if it did leak, it's better oil.

Bottom line, the Amsoil in my car has been in there for 11,000 miles and is only slightly darker than when I put it in.  Dino takes about 1,500 to get black.

[phylo101]

Ah. Now I understand how I slipped up...

Perhaps I should have said detergent/dispersant additives. Or maybe rust and corrosion inhibitors. Or maybe antioxidants. Personally, I meant anti-wear additives. Tho' I did also forget to refer to them as viscosity modifiers and pour point depressants. My mistake.

Once upon a time people could use this site for advice, not for entertainment value and ego boosting. I'll not be troubling myself contributing any more advice from my 22 years of Four ownership. Any kind of oil *I* use wouldnt withstand another pointless flaming.

I'll just go back to spannering on my own bikes, and keeping the sun off MY neck as I work in the yard. Wouldn't want MY neck geting red.....

phylo

[bistromath]

Aw, both of you hush. It's Friday afternoon -- go for a ride!