Author Topic: Death by drum break (Read 8150 times)

Ryan6838 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 15, 2011, 11:36:50 PM »

Went to grab front brake once, lever bottomed out. Panic braked rear and went into a slide headed to the back of a Roadking thinking this is going to hurt. Somehow i controlled it and didnt wreck. Hadnt been riding long and bike went into the garage. Needless to say shes getting all new brakes. Only reason i knew how to ride the skid was the motorcycle safety class.

mlinder · « **Reply #26 on:** March 16, 2011, 06:28:39 AM »

I encourage everyone who didn't grow up on dirt bikes to spend a summer out in the dirt.

Good, fairly safe way to learn how to control rear wheel lockup and crossed-up counter steering.

dna_level_c7 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 16, 2011, 08:10:47 AM »

I was always told to use both brakes evenly. I like to use the rear brake a bit more due to an annoying squeak from the front.

I can stop my bike with just the rear brake without any issues. I locked it up on an exit ramp a few times but I kept my cool and didn’t drop the bike. I would definitely take a look at your drums and shoes; that sounds like there could be a serious problem.

mlinder · « **Reply #28 on:** March 16, 2011, 08:13:10 AM »

Quote from: dna_level_c7 on March 16, 2011, 08:10:47 AM

I was always told to use both brakes evenly. I like to use the rear brake a bit more due to an annoying squeak from the front.

I can stop my bike with just the rear brake without any issues. I locked it up on an exit ramp a few times but I kept my cool and didn’t drop the bike. I would definitely take a look at your drums and shoes; that sounds like there could be a serious problem.

No offense, but you're doing it wrong. over 80% of your braking power is on the front wheel when stopping.

754 · « **Reply #29 on:** March 16, 2011, 08:27:35 AM »

I spent a lot of the last few months not using much front brake. Had to ride lets say conservatively, on slick snow and ice.. Hard to downshift with heavy mitts on too.. used the back a lot and its getting to max diameter.
Better roads now, using the front more,

.. time to fix up the ravages of winter, sure wrecks the old 750...

mlinder · « **Reply #30 on:** March 16, 2011, 08:33:05 AM »

I do use the rear if I see ice on the road. Any other time, bad idea.

Nikkisixx · « **Reply #31 on:** March 16, 2011, 08:42:15 AM »

I opened this thread expecting a Neil Pert solo or something

mlinder · « **Reply #32 on:** March 16, 2011, 08:44:57 AM »

Quote from: Nikkisixx on March 16, 2011, 08:42:15 AM

I opened this thread expecting a Neil Pert solo or something

Ha, I honestly couldn't figure out what the thread was about 'til I opened it.

Skunk Stripe · « **Reply #33 on:** March 16, 2011, 10:12:42 AM »

Why is using the rear bad? That is a fail. As you said before "sorry but you are doing it wrong." Yes you get way more out of the front but you will stop best using both and you will maintain better control. Please do not throw in racing as we are not talking about racing. Even racers use the back, even if it just to set up for a turn or for trail braking.

Fix the back brake, op. It is dumb to only have 1 functioning brake.

mlinder · « **Reply #34 on:** March 16, 2011, 10:22:38 AM »

Quote from: Skunk Stripe on March 16, 2011, 10:12:42 AM

Why is using the rear bad? That is a fail. As you said before "sorry but you are doing it wrong." Yes you get way more out of the front but you will stop best using both and you will maintain better control. Please do not throw in racing as we are not talking about racing. Even racers use the back, even if it just to set up for a turn or for trail braking.

Fix the back brake, op. It is dumb to only have 1 functioning brake.

The rear brake, overused even a tiny amount, is asking for a lockup and a low-side.

Point is, his rear brake is probably good, or good enough, anyway. I'm not purporting he shouldn't have it in proper working order, I'm suggesting he learns to use his rear brake sparingly.

Gordon · « **Reply #35 on:** March 16, 2011, 10:40:10 AM »

Quote from: Skunk Stripe on March 16, 2011, 10:12:42 AM

Why is using the rear bad? That is a fail. As you said before "sorry but you are doing it wrong." Yes you get way more out of the front but you will stop best using both and you will maintain better control. Please do not throw in racing as we are not talking about racing. Even racers use the back, even if it just to set up for a turn or for trail braking.

Fix the back brake, op. It is dumb to only have 1 functioning brake.

+1

If you find that your rear brake locks up regularly in normal road conditions, then you're either using it incorrectly or it's not functioning properly. I'm sure there are many riders of old sohc4's out there who have just gotten used to having a rear drum brake that isn't working correctly, and because of this tend to only use the front brake, but that doesn't mean that's the best way to stop or that it's supposed to be that way.

Mainerider · « **Reply #36 on:** March 16, 2011, 10:45:50 AM »

The essential problem with using both brakes in an emergency situation is that is difficult enough to focus on one brake in a full-on panic stop. The point is that unless you are very skilled (and braking properly is like any other activity-you need to practice to improve) then put the laws of motion and weight transfer on your side and use your front brake. 9 times out of 10 it will be the smart play.

mlinder · « **Reply #37 on:** March 16, 2011, 10:48:34 AM »

Quote from: Gordon on March 16, 2011, 10:40:10 AM

Quote from: Skunk Stripe on March 16, 2011, 10:12:42 AM
Why is using the rear bad? That is a fail. As you said before "sorry but you are doing it wrong." Yes you get way more out of the front but you will stop best using both and you will maintain better control. Please do not throw in racing as we are not talking about racing. Even racers use the back, even if it just to set up for a turn or for trail braking.

Fix the back brake, op. It is dumb to only have 1 functioning brake.

+1

If you find that your rear brake locks up regularly in normal road conditions, then you're either using it incorrectly or it's not functioning properly. I'm sure there are many riders of old sohc4's out there who have just gotten used to having a rear drum brake that isn't working correctly, and because of this tend to only use the front brake, but that doesn't mean that's the best way to stop or that it's supposed to be that way.

Lockup and lowside accidents are at least 90% user error, not from an improperly setup rear brake.

mlinder · « **Reply #38 on:** March 16, 2011, 10:50:55 AM »

The laws of physics disagree with the "equal braking" theory you guys have.

TwoTired · « **Reply #39 on:** March 16, 2011, 10:52:59 AM »

Quote from: mlinder on March 16, 2011, 10:50:55 AM

The laws of physics disagree with the "equal braking" theory you guys have.

Yep.

Mainerider · « **Reply #40 on:** March 16, 2011, 10:53:57 AM »

By the way, the rear being a drum isn't inherently a problem. There have been effective fron drum brakes. Its the lack of tire loading on the rear during hard braking (think everything in your car flying off the seats during a hard stop). Doesn't matter if you have a drum or disc out back.

mlinder · « **Reply #41 on:** March 16, 2011, 11:00:52 AM »

Quote from: Mainerider on March 16, 2011, 10:53:57 AM

By the way, the rear being a drum isn't inherently a problem. There have been effective fron drum brakes. Its the lack of tire loading on the rear during hard braking (think everything in your car flying off the seats during a hard stop). Doesn't matter if you have a drum or disc out back.

I think they are saying that old drum brakes have a tendency to lock up unexpectedly. I guess it might be true under some circumstances with improperly adjusted shoes. Moreso than discs.

Gordon · « **Reply #42 on:** March 16, 2011, 11:02:22 AM »

Quote from: mlinder on March 16, 2011, 10:50:55 AM

The laws of physics disagree with the "equal braking" theory you guys have.

I don't believe anyone here said that you get equal braking force from both brakes. By your own statement, you get 80% of your braking from the front brake. That leaves 20% for the rear. So if you're only using the front brake, you're only getting 80% of your potential stopping force. In most situations that's plenty, but in some situations you need all 100%. For someone who's practiced at using the rear brake and knows how to use it properly, you're going to be able to use it in those situations when you need it more effectively and with less chance of a lock-up if your foot is already on the pedal and applying at least a small amount of force. If your foot isn't already applying pressure to the pedal you're more likely to stomp on it and cause it to lock.

Quote from: mlinder on March 16, 2011, 10:48:34 AM

Lockup and lowside accidents are at least 90% user error, not from an improperly setup rear brake.

I don't disagree with that theory, but just because a lot of riders never learned how to use their rear brake correctly doesn't mean I'd suggest that everyone just stop using theirs. It would be better if riders actually learned how to use it correctly.

Mainerider · « **Reply #43 on:** March 16, 2011, 11:07:16 AM »

Yes that is what they are saying. I'm pointing out that a tire with virtiually no downward force on it will lock up and skid. A properly adjusted drum will still lock up easily if the rear tire is not loaded. The prob w the rear is its fine to use in normal braking but horrible in most panic stops. And people revert to muscle memory in a panic. Best just not to train your body to reach for the rear at all.

mlinder · « **Reply #44 on:** March 16, 2011, 11:11:09 AM »

Quote from: Gordon on March 16, 2011, 11:02:22 AM

Quote from: mlinder on March 16, 2011, 10:50:55 AM
The laws of physics disagree with the "equal braking" theory you guys have.

I don't believe anyone here said that you get equal braking force from both brakes. By your own statement, you get 80% of your braking from the front brake.

Quote

I was always told to use both brakes evenly. I like to use the rear brake a bit more due to an annoying squeak from the front.

Quote

That leaves 20% for the rear. So if you're only using the front brake, you're only getting 80% of your potential stopping force. In most situations that's plenty, but in some situations you need all 100%.

And if you misjudge and go 25%? Then what happens?

Quote

For someone who's practiced at using the rear brake and knows how to use it properly, you're going to be able to use it in those situations when you need it more effectively and with less chance of a lock-up if your foot is already on the pedal and applying at least a small amount of force. If your foot isn't already applying pressure to the pedal you're more likely to stomp on it and cause it to lock.

I'm skilled enough to use it. I use it properly, and improperly, for some fun sometimes. I think newer riders should learn to rely on only front brake for a year or so, and work in rear brake later.
Or, as I said, spend a summer on a dirtbike, in the dirt.

Quote from: mlinder on March 16, 2011, 10:48:34 AM

Lockup and lowside accidents are at least 90% user error, not from an improperly setup rear brake.

Quote

I don't disagree with that theory, but just because a lot of riders never learned how to use their rear brake correctly doesn't mean I'd suggest that everyone just stop using theirs. It would be better if riders actually learned how to use it correctly.

I suggest they stop using them 'til they learn how to.

Gordon · « **Reply #45 on:** March 16, 2011, 11:14:48 AM »

Quote from: mlinder on March 16, 2011, 11:11:09 AM

I don't disagree with that theory, but just because a lot of riders never learned how to use their rear brake correctly doesn't mean I'd suggest that everyone just stop using theirs. It would be better if riders actually learned how to use it correctly.

I suggest they stop using them 'til they learn how to.
[/quote]

I wasn't born knowing how to use my rear brake, and neither was anybody else. I learned by riding and using it. You say you learned on dirt, and that's great, but it doesn't mean you can't also learn by riding on the street.

mlinder · « **Reply #46 on:** March 16, 2011, 11:20:02 AM »

Some people are not 'naturals'. Some are.

Learning to rely wholly on front brake first teaches good habits, and gets a years worth of riding in to strengthen someones skills.

I think that, after learning to rely on front brake only, working in the rear brake later is sound practice. I did not say they should never learn to use it. I said they should learn to ride without it first.

FunJimmy · « **Reply #47 on:** March 16, 2011, 11:32:18 AM »

Quote from: maliveline on March 15, 2011, 12:41:07 PM

Needless to say I haven't had my heart rate up that high for a long time.

Maybe you're onto something here. Scare yourself to better fitness.
I hate all the sweat and effort it takes to get my heart rate up when working out.
This could be just the thing.

Gordon · « **Reply #48 on:** March 16, 2011, 11:34:33 AM »

Quote from: mlinder on March 16, 2011, 11:20:02 AM

Some people are not 'naturals'. Some are.

Learning to rely wholly on front brake first teaches good habits, and gets a years worth of riding in to strengthen someones skills.

I think that, after learning to rely on front brake only, working in the rear brake later is sound practice. I did not say they should never learn to use it. I said they should learn to ride without it first.

You specifically said it's a bad idea to use the rear brake anytime other than when you're on ice. Since many riders live in places where there is never ice on the roads, and most who do probably don't even take their bikes out if there's a chance of ice being on the roads, that's basically saying it's never a good idea to use the rear brake. If you never use the rear brake, you'll never learn to use it correctly.

I really don't think we're disagreeing here, but I'm having a hard time pinning down your stance.

mlinder · « **Reply #49 on:** March 16, 2011, 11:39:18 AM »

Quote from: Gordon on March 16, 2011, 11:34:33 AM

Quote from: mlinder on March 16, 2011, 11:20:02 AM
Some people are not 'naturals'. Some are.

Learning to rely wholly on front brake first teaches good habits, and gets a years worth of riding in to strengthen someones skills.

I think that, after learning to rely on front brake only, working in the rear brake later is sound practice. I did not say they should never learn to use it. I said they should learn to ride without it first.

You specifically said it's a bad idea to use the rear brake anytime other than when you're on ice. Since many riders live in places where there is never ice on the roads, and most who do probably don't even take their bikes out if there's a chance of ice being on the roads, that's basically saying it's never a good idea to use the rear brake. If you never use the rear brake, you'll never learn to use it correctly.

I really don't think we're disagreeing here, but I'm having a hard time pinning down your stance.

If someone is inexperienced enough to lock up their rear brake, my stance is they shouldn't use it. At least, not until they become better riders.

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Author Topic: Death by drum break (Read 8150 times)