Author Topic: Death by drum break  (Read 8172 times)

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Offline dna_level_c7

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2011, 11:41:33 AM »
@ Mlinder - I didn’t take any offense at all!

I think that there is definitely an issue with maliveline’s rear brake!

I originally started braking with the front and gradually started using the rear later. Now I slow the bike down by downshifting, then the rear brake and THEN the front. I played with my rear brake adjustments until I was comfortable and I can count the times that the rear wheel locked up on one hand!

The point I was making is that there is definitely something wrong with his rear brake because I use mine all the time without locking it up! This really isn’t about technique…
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Offline mlinder

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2011, 11:45:26 AM »
@ Mlinder - I didn’t take any offense at all!

I think that there is definitely an issue with maliveline’s rear brake!

I originally started braking with the front and gradually started using the rear later. Now I slow the bike down by downshifting, then the rear brake and THEN the front. I played with my rear brake adjustments until I was comfortable and I can count the times that the rear wheel locked up on one hand!

The point I was making is that there is definitely something wrong with his rear brake because I use mine all the time without locking it up! This really isn’t about technique…


I think it probably is technique.

Again, to the OP, yes, check your rear brake function.

Don't learn to rely on your rear brake for stopping, though.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2011, 11:49:51 AM »
Learning to rely wholly on front brake first teaches good habits, and gets a years worth of riding in to strengthen someones skills.

How is only using half (or 80%) of your available braking equipment, teaching good habits?

Why not learn to use coordinated effort at the outset of training?  
Isn't that the better habit to ingrain?

Isn't it better to stop 20% this side of bumper impact than 20% beyond it?
When an emergency occurs, you fall back to your training habits.  If you fall back on just the front brake, you put yourself at greater risk of not stopping in time. IMO

I do agree, off road experience in low traction conditions, helps a great deal with on road emergency maneuvers.  
Given a choice, I would rather steer clear of or around a hazard than panic stop.  Hazards behind are better than hazards ahead, in my book.

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Offline mlinder

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2011, 11:56:06 AM »
I suppose, Lloyd, but I see far too many people going down from a locked rear brake.

Of course using a rear brake properly is better than not using it, but using it improperly is far worse.

Learning to rely primarily on front brake first reduces the chance a panicked rear-lockup considerably.
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Offline dna_level_c7

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2011, 12:01:30 PM »
I agree and I think it would be better to learn how to use both brakes. I think he is just choosing the better of two evils…  8)

Ideally everyone will learn to use both brakes but realistically people don’t. If you tell people to learn to use the front first then you are ensuring the know how to use at least 80% and not risking a crash course in braking by relying on the rear brake and locking the rear wheel up.

No one mentioned downshifting... Is this something that is OK? I've heard mixed opinions on this. ???
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2011, 12:07:52 PM »
I suppose, Lloyd, but I see far too many people going down from a locked rear brake.
With SOHC4s?
Or, with bikes that have far more powerful front AND rear brakes?
I speculate that modern bike users are wary of that over powered front brake, and fear it, treat it gingerly in an emergency.  If the rear brake is just as sensitive, then through-the-stiff-boot sensitivity loss creates easier loss of control modulation.

Cheers,

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Offline Gordon

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2011, 12:15:25 PM »
In day-to-day riding, you're far more likely to encounter patches of gravel while coming to a stop, or slick spots in the road while turning, or low-speed tight maneuvering like in a parking lot, or any number of other times when using the front brake is a bad idea than you are to encounter a situation requiring a panic stop.  If you're not used to using the rear brake in conjunction with the front, on a regular basis, because you're new to riding and are relying on your front brake 100%, then you're going down.       

Offline dna_level_c7

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #57 on: March 16, 2011, 12:20:35 PM »
In day-to-day riding, you're far more likely to encounter patches of gravel while coming to a stop, or slick spots in the road while turning, or low-speed tight maneuvering like in a parking lot, or any number of other times when using the front brake is a bad idea than you are to encounter a situation requiring a panic stop.  If you're not used to using the rear brake in conjunction with the front, on a regular basis, because you're new to riding and are relying on your front brake 100%, then you're going down.       

+1

That's what I was told when I first started riding...
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Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #58 on: March 16, 2011, 12:20:52 PM »
Right you are gordon.
No matter what, if you lock your front, you will go down. If you lock your rear, you MAY go down.
I have never seen a person go down from a locked rear when traveling in a straight line unless they got sideways and released, then they high sided. Sure if you lock the rear on a corner, you will go down but that would happen locking the front.
Sorry but you will find no msf course that teaches front only braking.
the reason for that is simple. It is best to learn to use both brakes.
there is no physics out there that states using the front brake only, is safer.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 12:24:04 PM by Skunk Stripe »

Offline Mainerider

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #59 on: March 16, 2011, 12:25:00 PM »
I have two modern sport and sport/touring bikes and I can say that there is nothing to fear from using them forcefully. Again, its a two step process. First, a moderate squeeze to start the weight transfer, then a progressively harder application. If you haven't experienced a modern brake set up it is a real eye opener. They grip so well most bikes can do Stoppies at will. The rear brake debate exists because there are two conversations I
-normal use and panic stops. What's fine for one use isn't for the other. Re the engine braking Q, a blip of throttle helps match engine speed w road speed. Using pure engine braking is hard on the clutch and other internals.

Offline mlinder

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2011, 12:26:49 PM »
People I personally teach to ride learn proper use of both brakes.

I can't teach anyone to ride on the webernets.

So, yes, I guess I do choose the lesser of two evils when passing things on in this manner.
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Offline Grnrngr

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2011, 01:22:42 PM »
Interesting discussion....I learned about brakes from my bicycling experience. Started way much earlier than motorcycles. On my single speed bike (pre "fixie" era) you pedaled in the normal fashion to go forward, quit pedalling to coast and applied rearward pressure to apply brake. rear brake...that was all there was. still easy to fall until you learn how. I learned how, got real good at applying only as much as necessary, to keep speed up, and at sliding sideways to stops, fell off a bunch but learned to ride. Got a ten speed and WOOHOO!!! Front and rear brakes!! Wow!! front brakes stop you so much faster, who needs rear brakes? first time I hit the front brake in the gravel, guess what? yup...faceplant. learned how to use front brakes anywhere, wet dry, gravel and dirt,  and sometimes you just DON'T use it. Using both brakes is definitely the way to use them but experience is what teaches you when and where to use the correct combination. kinda sad to think that someone thinks the reason most people use the front brake is cuz the rear one doesn't work...if you have a brake, front or rear, that doesn't work, you should not be riding that bike. If your bike only has one brake, usually rear, you should be a lot more conservative in your riding style because, yes, you only have half the brakes. There are actually guys who ride high performance bikes with NO brakes, but they only do it on the track and they have learned how to be very effective with using the gears and motor resistance for braking purposes. If the OP's rear brake (not break) actually only has "roll" and "lock" functionality, something is wrong, needs to be taken apart and completely rebuilt. Brake shoes can and do fall apart, pulled a wheel off the other day and the (probably original) pad just fell off. Glad I didn't do my usual "just jump on and ride". The guy I bought my 750A from had a nice cx500 he bought (for like $150?) because one of the rear pads had come off and jammed between the drum and other pad, causing it to lock the rear end. PO sold it cuz "it's froze up or something, probably only good for scrap". If it locks because he's not using it proper; he needs to spend some time going half as fast as usual and learn how to use it. Learn how to lock it up and slide properly, like in a big open parking lot when no one is there, and wear your leathers if you don't want to do  it in the dirt. I saw a new rider hit a tree after locking his back wheel in a straightline stop. Using pure engine braking is the first step in the process of slowing down, if you're not doing that FIRST, your doing it wrong. The very first thing you should do if you sense or see you're getting into a difficult or dangerous situation is GET OFF THE THROTTLE, and personally, I always downshift at least once before ever hitting the brakes. In fact, if you have to use your brakes to maintain a certain speed, like thru traffic, your not doing it right, most if not all minor adjustments of speed should be done with the gearbox. Unless it IS a dangerous situation, the only time you should be using your brakes is when coming to a stop.
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Offline Mainerider

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2011, 01:51:50 PM »
The goal isn't to slide w out low or high-siding; its to stop. Even if you maintain vertical if the bike is sliding its not stopping. For the average rider its very difficult to consciously say" I'm going to carefully apply both the front and back brake as I head to the back bumper of the SUV in front of me." In a panic stop I'm glad thati have ingrained the habit of properly using the single most powerful control on a bike-the front brake. yes the rear has its uses but under real world panic stop conditions most people won't calmly modulate that rear brake- they will lock it, slide and panic, release and most likely low side I ll take my chances with the brake that has the tire loading going on...

Offline Gordon

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2011, 05:24:09 PM »
Right you are gordon.
No matter what, if you lock your front, you will go down. If you lock your rear, you MAY go down.
I have never seen a person go down from a locked rear when traveling in a straight line unless they got sideways and released, then they high sided. Sure if you lock the rear on a corner, you will go down but that would happen locking the front.
Sorry but you will find no msf course that teaches front only braking.
the reason for that is simple. It is best to learn to use both brakes.
there is no physics out there that states using the front brake only, is safer.

Thats really not that helpful from either of you, your front brake is the most important piece of equipment on your bike apart from good tyres. If there is gravel on the road then you should be aware of it, thats what its all about if you want to survive riding a motorcycle, yes there is gravel everywhere and i have had rear wheel slides but KNOWING when to use either brake is the most important thing here. If you guys have ever ridden really hard for extended periods then you will know that you use your front brake religiously, the rear is one touch from disaster. It is pointing out the obvious that if you hit the front brakes in gravel you WILL come down but in all my years of riding hard i have never done that but i use 90+% front brakes and a lot of the time i NEVER bother to use the rear unless i am using it for stability, which is usually at slow speed. My Kawasaki GPX 750{ex race bike} regularly got the rear wheel off the ground under hard braking, i can guarantee you there is no way of stopping faster NONE. If you are not seeing gravel on the road before braking then you need to stop riding or learn to do it properly. I take nothing for granted on a bike but i sure as hell know how to brake.......Ask my mates.... ;D



It should also be pointed out that if you use the rear brake only that you are only using about 10-20% of your braking capability, not 50%

Sorry you don't find it helpful, Mick, but it's a fact, and knowing the facts can actually be very helpful to some.  

I'm not arguing that the rear brake is as important as the front brake.  That's not the issue here, but for whatever reason it still seems to be a sticking point for some.  I'm arguing that learning proper usage of the rear brake in conjunction with the front brake is an important safety matter when riding.  

The fact that this is being argued against on a motorcycle forum by experienced riders is completely baffling to me. ???


edit:  two puns in there that were completely unintentional. :D

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2011, 07:25:10 PM »
I use the back brake to load the bike and then apply the front when coming to a controlled, non-emergency stop.

Emergency maneuvers depend on the situation and are all treated differently.
 
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Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2011, 07:38:52 PM »
Retro, please do not apply racing to this discussion. We are not talking about racing circumstances. Bottom line is PROPER, not your technique, uses both brakes. That is a fact that will be taught at any accredited msf course. You will also learn about using the rear brake in motorcycle schools such as those run by skip barber.
Motorcycling is about constantly improving your skill. You will never know it all, no one will.

Offline Goofaroo

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2011, 07:55:51 PM »
I think the most solid advice anyone has given here is that you should spend some time in the dirt. In fact, I think you should become a dirt biker. If trailering a bike to a riding area is not feasible then buy a dualsport bike. You can find a perfectly good dirt or dualsport for under $1000 and a damn fine one for around $2000.

The advantage that you gain on the dirt is that you can crash all you want. You can find your limits and learn every facet of motorcycle control. You will learn things that you can never learn through street riding even though they are the exact same skills. Single track motorcycle trails are the best training on the planet for anyone wanting to become a better motorcyclist.

  For most of us it simply isn't possible to advance our street skills on the street because we can't push ourselves to the limits of our ability. The punishment for failure is simply too severe in street riding environments.  I couldn't even begin to guess the number of times I have crashed on the dirt but I can tell you that in all of my thousands of street riding miles I have crashed once. I was planning to make a pass on the outside but found out I just wasn't a good enough rider to pull it off.

Offline 754

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2011, 08:24:14 PM »
Talented winning motocrossers can be skeery to ride with on the street till they are used to it..

 Some on here should learn the words modulation and threshold braking.. think those are the right words..
 
 New sportbikes brake differently, note size of rear brakes, contact patch , and weight over front wheel..

 I will say this, front brakes do most of the work, back brake  can be 20 % rudder  & 80%  brake..
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Offline Gordon

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #68 on: March 16, 2011, 10:49:34 PM »
Retro, please do not apply racing to this discussion. We are not talking about racing circumstances. Bottom line is PROPER, not your technique, uses both brakes. That is a fact that will be taught at any accredited msf course. You will also learn about using the rear brake in motorcycle schools such as those run by skip barber.
Motorcycling is about constantly improving your skill. You will never know it all, no one will.

I am not talking about racing but the term "racing improves the breed" is relevant also, I also don't for one instant think that i know it all either, my point is, if you think the rear brake is going to save your life in an emergency braking situation then you are wrong, most, if not all hard braking in an emergency should be done with the front brake, even in the wet. You need to find the limits of your braking system and use it accordingly, my technique is good and i could probably out brake a lot of guys here , when i was street racing in my younger years this is exactly where i gained a distinct advantage over the guys i rode with. Motorcycles have been my only form of transport since i was 16 and bought my first K1 750, i only got my car licence when i was 40 because i needed it for work. When braking hard to avoid a situation it is FAR safer to rely on the front brake as you have way more control over the brakes with your hands, combine that with quick smooth down changes and it all works extremely well. I am not trying to argue here just i have seen a lot of guys go down from using rear brakes in panic situations {and some bad accidents including fatalities}and i have never seen anyone go down from locking the front {except in the dirt on a road bike}, actually it is very hard to lock the front brake and a large proportion of riders under utilise their front brake thinking that it will lock.When you are hard on the front, and i mean hard, the back wheel barely has any traction and locks very easily, my GSXR1100 was a great example of this, i only ever used the rear brake when going slow for stability or trying to stop wheel spin coming out of low gear tight corners. Racing has a hell of a lot to do with correct braking technique, to discard that is silly. Gordon, i just thought adding gravel was detracting a bit, you could also add oil and diesel, both of which i have hit and managed to stay up, more luck than good management.....Don't ever underestimate the power of your front brake, it will save your life far more efficiently than the rear.......I cringe when i see bobbers and choppers with no front brake.... ???  There was another thread about brakes on here and i lot of guys disagreed with what i had to say until a couple of guys that either raced or rode hard chimed in and supported my view,{this concerned braking into corners} i trust my braking technique implicitly and wouldn't change it for a minute.
There you go, i do use both brakes and there is NOTHING wrong with my technique, it is all about knowing when either brake is going to do its job best, for panic stops you better know how to use your front brake properly.... ;)

See!  It's exactly what I already thought.  When we get right down to it, everybody is in agreement on the whole front/rear brake thing.  It's just that, for whatever reason, those arguing for the front brake have gotten it into their heads that those arguing that the rear brake is also an important component of the entire braking/riding safely system seem to think that it's more important or should be relied upon as much as the front brake. 

Nobody is saying that.  Yes, the front brake supplies the vast majority of the braking force.  Yes, using the rear brake incorrectly can cause problems.  But using both front and rear brakes correctly will stop you and your bike more quickly and in a shorter distance than using either brake alone.   

Offline oldbiker

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2011, 01:56:37 AM »
There has been a lot of glib talk about 80% front and 20% rear braking force!
In panic situations, and in really hard braking (easily seen in Moto GP) you can see the rear tyre is barely touching the ground. In these circumstances, the rear brake can contribute almost NO braking force at all.
Ask any guy with real racing experience and he will confirm that the front brake does almost 100% of his braking.

Offline dave500

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #70 on: March 17, 2011, 03:58:02 AM »
i like most older guys am more of a dirt rider,i can lock the rear wheel and flick around a cb 500 at will,in fact when im due for a new rear tyre ive done this for practise on the old tyre,whats the problem with locking a rear wheel?i wouldnt do it on a cruiser though,if ive got to stop hard its the front brake,maybe a bit of rear,its a "thing at the time " thing,some guys aint got no feel.,ive met guys who have never ridden a dirt bike but have ducatis,and they have  never dropped a bike ever,so that experience is going to be a hard one for them,you gotta learn dirt or you wont learn how to step off ,or slide with it,or ride it out,or tumble,i know road bikes dont forgive like dirt bikes on a loose surface but i think you have to learn how to crash!next time your due for a new rear tyre,try some skids on the old one in an out of the way from traffic safer place,gain some confidance,a rear wheel lock up does not mean youll crash,or lay it down(unless you want to make it a gentler landing),or high side,this is all at normal 50mph speeds or less of course,if your doing superbike speeds on a super bike they dont really lend themselves to dirt style riding.

Offline dave500

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #71 on: March 17, 2011, 04:23:15 AM »
they do good power slides mick!i think most guys are afraid of a rear wheel lock,on a honda cb because theyve never done it,so if it happens they stuff up,when its really no big deal,a cb is a fat old heavy dirt bike with short travel suspension,a rear wheel slide wont slow you down but you can use it to steer somewhat,straight line front braking is the quickest way to stop,deal with any situation as you will,it all looks good on paper,its different on the tar,the situation might only give you a half second to wash of as much speed as you can,be carefull out there,back to topic though, you should have a controlable rear brake.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 04:34:40 AM by dave500 »

Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #72 on: March 17, 2011, 06:18:14 AM »
Fact, a skidding tire provides more contact friction than a rolling tire. So even if you do lock the back brake, it will still slow you more than if the rear tire is allowed to turn with no resistance. And if you just can't wrap your head around this, then do it for yourself. Get a any section of road and go almost any speed you want. See how long it takes to coast to a stop. Now do it again this time use the rear brake. You will stop sooner, even if you lock it. So if your rear tire is in contact with the ground, rear brake will still help.
you front brake nazi people seem to be thinking that us rear brake proponents are saying to either use only the rear or 50/50. I am not sure where the hell you are all getting that. I think it is just such a desire to protect your precious front brake that you are missing critical things.
Gordon and I and others are saying to use both at the same time. We are also saying that the front provides almost all the force.

Offline 754

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #73 on: March 17, 2011, 07:59:47 AM »
Retro Rocket,  to be clear here..
 Are you talking braking scenarios that can be achieved with Stock SOHC brakes components and forks , wheels??
 Or are you talking about a scenario that involves different forks, brakes, rims, & tire   that are upgrades..??
 Just saying, as a young or inexperienced rider may try that type of thing on a stock CB, with far different results...

 Just trying to keep this more as it applies to our bikes..
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Offline dna_level_c7

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Re: Death by drum break
« Reply #74 on: March 17, 2011, 09:26:32 AM »
Fact, a skidding tire provides more contact friction than a rolling tire. So even if you do lock the back brake, it will still slow you more than if the rear tire is allowed to turn with no resistance. And if you just can't wrap your head around this, then do it for yourself. Get a any section of road and go almost any speed you want. See how long it takes to coast to a stop. Now do it again this time use the rear brake. You will stop sooner, even if you lock it. So if your rear tire is in contact with the ground, rear brake will still help.
you front brake nazi people seem to be thinking that us rear brake proponents are saying to either use only the rear or 50/50. I am not sure where the hell you are all getting that. I think it is just such a desire to protect your precious front brake that you are missing critical things.
Gordon and I and others are saying to use both at the same time. We are also saying that the front provides almost all the force.

+1

I think it’s safe to summarize all this… :-\

1 - Use both brakes during NORMAL riding
2 – During an EMERGENCY stop you should be focusing on the front brake and only use the rear if you are confident YOU won’t lock the wheel.
3 – The OP needs to have his rear brake fixed before riding! :o
4 – Brake threads are almost as bad as oil threads…  ::)

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