Author Topic: Cylinder boring question  (Read 3495 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline q2418130103p

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
Cylinder boring question
« on: March 16, 2011, 08:21:49 PM »
When a machine shop bores cylinders for new pistons, are they supposed to measure each piston and bore each cylinder to match, or is it assumed that you can measure one piston, and bore all the cylinders from there.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 04:10:14 AM by q2418130103p »
Check out my CB550 project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83097

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,058
Re: Piston boring question
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2011, 08:27:16 PM »
 It is actually cylinder boring, and yes each piston is mesured and should be marked and fitted to a certain bore if there is discrepancies in size..

and we are talking TENTHS of a thousandth of an inch..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,073
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Piston boring question
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2011, 12:13:58 AM »
754 is correct, but having said that if it is a set of Honda or Art pistons neither I nor my machinist have ever found a variation from the specified size
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline q2418130103p

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2011, 04:12:00 AM »
I fixed the thread title, thanks.

So the machine shop certainly did not measure each piston, I found three of them still sealed shut.  The 4th one I had already opened, so I assume {hope} they measured at least that one.  They are JE pistons.
Check out my CB550 project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83097

Offline Silverback

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 388
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2011, 07:24:49 AM »
I've seen a few sets of pistons with minute variations. Not that often, though. The best way is certainly to match each bore to its piston. My pistons always come back numbered from the machinist.
Chris
"It's hard to define soul. You get it in art. You get it in music, and occasionally you get it in machinery."
78 CB750F racer
78 CB750F stock
75 CB750K Baby Blue Sold (She was a great bike!)
71 CB750K (rusty rod)
77 cb550F Sold :(  Bought it Back :)
Basket case 73 CB750, 77 CB750F (Building now)
01 Aprilia Falco
76 kz400
96 BMW K1100LT

Offline Magpie

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,314
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2011, 07:36:38 AM »
I've had the same machine shop do it both ways. The first time they just wanted one piston, the second time they wanted all four and stamped them to match the cylinder they were fitted to. Both bikes run fine.
Cliff.

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,058
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2011, 07:48:26 AM »
I think nowadays,  pistons would/should not vary much in size.
 But not checking them, is assuming, not knowing, and that can cause problems...
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline q2418130103p

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2011, 07:50:24 PM »
I guess I will measure them out myself to be sure.

Thanks guys.
Check out my CB550 project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83097

Offline q2418130103p

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2011, 12:32:40 PM »
So I didnt have any micrometers large enough to measure pistons, so I went ahead and got a set of fowler 0-4" micrometers.  

I found it rather difficult to accurately measure the pistons with a micrometer.  There is a tendency for the gauge, or piston, to want to rotate.  I have a mark as close to 0.5" down from the skirt at 90° off the boss angle as I could.  I was able to get a measurement of 2.3978" for each piston.  I took a number of measurements, but 2.3978" was the mode of the measurements.

I am going to measure out the cylinders tomorrow.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 06:01:46 AM by q2418130103p »
Check out my CB550 project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83097

Offline q2418130103p

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2011, 06:02:50 AM »
I had the cylinders measured at a machine shop, they were all either 2.4007 or 2.4008. So that is 2.9 and 3.0 mils of piston to wall clearance.


-EDIT- Fixed incorrect reference to 29 and 30 mil to 2.9 and 3.0 mil.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 09:31:16 AM by q2418130103p »
Check out my CB550 project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83097

Offline Kevin400F

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2011, 06:28:26 AM »
One "mil" being one-thousandth of an inch.... some early readers of this thread may have seen a reference to 29 to 30 mils (thousanths)  I see now the decimal point has been inserted as needed to indicate 2.9 to 3.0 mils of clearance.

Kevin

« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 08:16:22 AM by Kevin400F »

Offline q2418130103p

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2011, 06:29:55 AM »
Correct, my mistake.  I fixed my post.

Thanks.
Check out my CB550 project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83097

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,058
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2011, 09:23:25 AM »
 We must have different math up here  :o

 from what you wrote, I am getting . 3 thou clearance.
= .003 inch ..or .075 Millimeter..


 run it..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline q2418130103p

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2011, 09:30:41 AM »
Yeah, I was off by a decimal point, there is between 0.0030" and 0.0029" clearance.
Check out my CB550 project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83097

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,924
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2011, 10:20:46 AM »
Yeah, I was off by a decimal point, there is between 0.0030" and 0.0029" clearance.

If they are really those numbers, that's a bit looser than the normal recommendations of 0.0018"-0.0022" for the forged-type pistons from JE or Wiseco. If they are the more common cast pistons, like from Honda or ART, the clearance should be half that much, at 0.0010" (0.0008-0.0012", to be precise).

The reasoning: the forged pistons cool slower (and heat slower) than the cylinders around them. So, during startup, they will sometimes rattle a bit and might even burn a small amount of oil until they warm up enough to seal the bores well, very common. And, they are more warmup sensitive as the result. The cylinders conversely cool faster around them when the engine is shut off. The extra 0.001" typical clearance helps keep them from sticking in the bores (on their skirts) if the rider is, say, commuting around town, stopping at stores, jumping back on the bike, etc.

When the piston material more closely matches the cylinder fins' metals, this heating-cooling cycle difference is not so pronounced.

Racers learn that the forged pistons can withstand more power (i.e., hotter fuels, spark advance, compression, etc.), but only if they are bored "tight" like the regular pistons, all else being equal, Winning racers also know that a full cooldown is required before a restart in these 'tight' engines, or trouble develops pretty quickly. Pit crews I knew often had generators running big fans to cool off these engines during pit stops after the "no running while fueling" rules occurred in the 1970s.

So, in these engines it is a decision of "balance" between the clearance and the riding style: machine shops who don't know the customer will often tend to the looser side so they don't get blamed for a stuck piston later. If it is a little looser (as this appears to be), then always run the 20w50 oils to help keep the piston skirts heat transfer up with the cylinder walls and it should work out OK.

Another way to "check" although a bit hard to find, get some feeler gages of .001", 0.0015" and 0.002", lay one in the bore, slide the piston in over it and see what the clearance is on the wide part of the skirt (90 degrees from the pin). If the gage slides out snugly, that's the one. If it sticks, that's the thick one. If it slides out easily, it's bigger than that. This isn't the best way to measure things when boring, but it is a decent shade-tree wrench's check.  :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline q2418130103p

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2011, 10:41:54 AM »
Thanks for the info.  I will remember this for next time, and I will get some recommendations before I bore anything else.

There clearance that I have is a result of a note which was included with the JE pistons from Dynoman:

Check out my CB550 project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83097

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,924
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2011, 02:24:31 PM »
Thanks for the info.  I will remember this for next time, and I will get some recommendations before I bore anything else.

There clearance that I have is a result of a note which was included with the JE pistons from Dynoman:



Well, I would say (without having the pistons in my hand to measure, though) it appears the JE pistons have some taper below that 13mm point? Maybe measure the width at the bottom of their skirt and see if it comes out about 0.0008" wider. This would put the nominal clearance at 0.0020", which is closer to the recommendations I've always heard in the past. It may be that they just measure and spec things a little differently?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline q2418130103p

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2011, 04:21:50 PM »
I think it is 2.3982" at the bottom of the skirt.
Check out my CB550 project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83097

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,924
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2011, 05:10:49 PM »
I think it is 2.3982" at the bottom of the skirt.

That makes them sound about right, then!  :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline q2418130103p

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2011, 05:59:54 PM »
Thats 0.0025" clearance I think, still a bit high, but certainly much closer.
Check out my CB550 project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83097

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,058
Re: Cylinder boring question
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2011, 08:16:40 PM »
 It is not necessarily really big.. depends on the alloy used.
 And it depends wether you want to do a long breakin..
 I would rather be 1/2 though or more loose than stick it hard, cuz if you do that, they are no longer tight anyway..

 
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way