Author Topic: FFJMOORE CB550 BIG bore engine build.  (Read 83092 times)

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Offline fastbroshi

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #175 on: March 25, 2012, 09:03:02 PM »
   I think the stock base is .010", the head is .030".  With those and stock pistons I think the piston will be in the hole .010" or something like that.  But those don't look like stockers so what's the wrist pin center to top measurement on those pistons versus stock? 

  There's a very good CR calculator online I found that takes the bore, gasket thicknesses, etc all into account, I'll see if I can find it. 
Just call me Timmaaaaay!!!

Offline Flying J

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #176 on: March 25, 2012, 09:05:03 PM »
They are modified cb750 pistons

Offline Flying J

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #177 on: March 25, 2012, 10:06:52 PM »
aside from figuring out gasket thickness I also need torque specs. The manual doesnt address these bolts directly so Im going to go with "standard Parts" torque of 10ft/lbs. Any objections?

Offline Flying J

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #178 on: March 26, 2012, 11:25:47 AM »
Well reading through the Gentleman's Express article again the pistons are machined down to the same height as a Stock 550 so Im going to run the stock base gasket and a stock copper head gasket. Dynoman sells them at .043 and .050. I belive .043 is stock. Ill give him a call and see what he has to say.
http://www.dynoman.net/engine/gaskets-cometic.html#cb550

I have a few sets of gaskets that i have collected over the past few years so I think im going to use those for the rest of the motor. Rubber gaskets, o-rings and what not.

Offline fastbroshi

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #179 on: March 26, 2012, 12:25:15 PM »
Checking the "always reliable" Haynes manual, it lists:

Crankcase bearing cap bolts 8mm - 16.6-18lb ft
Crankcase bolts, 6mm  - 16.6-18lb ft

This is what I used when plastiguaging my crank.

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Offline Flying J

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #180 on: March 26, 2012, 03:38:22 PM »
when i tighten down the 6mm bolts they feel like they are going to strip before i get to the 19 lbs so i just let them be.

Dynoman suggested the 43mm CFM head gasket. Is this a better option then copper?


He also suggested a .020 thick base gasket. I measured the ones in the kits i have and they are about .020. SHould i use one I have or get a new one? Are they known to leak?

Im going through my gasket kits trying to figure out where all these o-rings go. Does anybody know the difference in the green ones?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 03:40:53 PM by ffJMoore »

Offline Flying J

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #181 on: March 26, 2012, 04:03:17 PM »
Ok here is a list of my current un answered Noob questions.
1) Copper or CFM gasket?
2)Buy a new base gasket (rubber coated steel)or use the one from my kit (looks like tar paper).
3)Whats the differance between the green and black o-rings?
4) The APE HD cylinder studs have a long and a short thread. Which end threads into the case? My guess would be the longer end.

Offline bwaller

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #182 on: March 26, 2012, 06:17:30 PM »
The 6mm bolts on the crankcase should be torqued to 6 or 7ft/lbs. You're right the longer threaded end of the HD studs in the case, respect the torque value. Looks like whoever built up those gasket kits had some extra o-rings. ;) I suggest you visit an online parts fische and figure placement out from there. The two cylinder base o-rings, tach drive, left side oil gallery plug are all similar but not the same size.

You're also correct about gasket thickness, 0.043" & 0.020". Here is what I do to measure piston height in the bore. I used two pieces of 1/4x1.25" steel bar and drilled holes for the front & rear studs and with spacers clamp the cylinders to the cases. Start with a stock gasket, install the cylinder over the pistons even with one ring. Use a dial indicator and attach the magnetic base on the steel bar. Indicate the cyl. deck right at the bore edge and with the pistons at TDC slide the indicator onto the piston. It takes a little practise to do this and get a good reading. The last two 550 engines I checked (with stock pistons) were 0.016" below deck. You can then order different thickness base gasket to adjust piston/deck height. I use the viton coated steel and have 0.010, 0.014, 0.020, plus you can stack them to get close to what you need. Machining the cylinder deck flat first is a must. You can remove more later if necessary.

You'll need to check piston/head, plus piston/valve clearances with a different piston dome too but unless your building crazy compression I'd recommend a CFM head gasket. Copper comes in different thickness which can help with the mentioned clearance issues but will never completely seal. They always weep a bit of oil.

Measuring all the clearances takes time and patience but if you're straying from stock pistons, is a must. You may need that piston down the hole a bit if it is domed.

Have fun, good luck.

Offline Flying J

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #183 on: March 26, 2012, 07:26:34 PM »
Thanks Bwaller. I have been looking at the parts fiche as well as this post and Im slowly figuring out where each one goes. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=85202.msg959245#msg959245

As for measuring the deck height, I understand how you do it now but what is the ideal deck height? The piston dome should be fine. They were cut to fit a CB550 with a larger cam.

I ordered the gaskets that dynoman recomended. Then i started looking at the Dyna 2000. Boy would that be cool! Not sure if the 550 charging system can handle it though.

Now for what I think is bad news. I was installing my HD studs with my handy dandy APE stud installer. After I had the front row in I noticed the top of the stud was dimpled and had some small fractures in it. Im going to email APE and give them a call tomorrow. Im so bummed.

Offline Syscrush

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #184 on: March 27, 2012, 06:51:43 AM »
Now for what I think is bad news. I was installing my HD studs with my handy dandy APE stud installer. After I had the front row in I noticed the top of the stud was dimpled and had some small fractures in it. Im going to email APE and give them a call tomorrow. Im so bummed.
That sucks, but it'll be OK.  You're going about all this the right way, and you're gonna get there.
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FWIW, I'm not a shill for Race Tech - I've just got a thing for good suspension and the RTCE's are the most cost-effective mod for these old damping rod front ends.

Offline bwaller

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #185 on: March 27, 2012, 08:04:06 AM »
Off the top of my head the torque on those studs in the upper case is only 8ft/lbs after bottoming in the hole. Shouldn't be enough to burr the end of the studs??

Offline akinz

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #186 on: March 27, 2012, 09:48:19 AM »
I think I might be able to help you with your question regarding the green o-rings.

The real thin ones, are o-rings for the valve guides ( they have to be removed obviously to replace). The other green o-rings sit on top of the oil passage channel on the top of the cylinder.

Here's a picture, you might be able to zoom in... The spots are at the far left and far right of the top of the cylinder, and will be located in the middle.



You might also have an o-ring for the starter. You'll have 4 o-rings that are about 25mm wide, they go between the head and the aluminum intakes from the carb side... If there are any others you are wondering about let me know, I might be able to help
77 CB550k, Finally completed after 3 long years of a complete teardown and rebuild/modification
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Offline akinz

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #187 on: March 27, 2012, 09:51:03 AM »
And I might be wrong, but I think the green o-rings are for high temp areas?
77 CB550k, Finally completed after 3 long years of a complete teardown and rebuild/modification
77 CB550k, on the backburner to turn into a vintage race bike
79 CBX 1000 an absolute classic I just aquired
2005 Yamaha Raven R6 my street and trackday ride

Offline Flying J

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #188 on: March 27, 2012, 10:43:20 AM »
Thanks akinz you confirmed my suspicions.

Torque values are not easy to come by for me. I looked in the honda manual and in my clymers manual and found nothing. So i searched the forum. This is what i came up with
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=81179.msg910785#msg910785

So your saying 8ft/lbs and not 20? I spoke with Jay via email briefly last night, I think he is going to tell me Im and idiot now.  ::)

Bwaller, (or anybody else) what spec am I looking for on piston/deck height?

Offline Flying J

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APE Cylinder Stud torque instructions
« Reply #189 on: March 27, 2012, 11:29:56 AM »
So yup Im the idiot. Got this from the APE website
CS500H CYLINDER STUD INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS

1. Long threaded end must be installed in the case.

2. Note stock stud length location before removing. There are two different stud lengths.

3. After removal of stock studs (removal tool #SP-100 available from APE) thoroughly clean holes with solvent and blow out.

4. Use APE stud installation tool #08-151 or two 8x1.25mm nuts on the noted location, bottoming out, then using a torque wrench torque to 8 ft. lbs. maximum.

4. Install head, and following manufacturer's torque pattern, torque nuts to 20-22 ft. lbs.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 11:36:38 AM by ffJMoore »

Offline Flying J

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #190 on: March 27, 2012, 11:35:39 AM »
APE is great! They are shipping me a few studs because im an idiot. Man I really hope this thread helps people not to make my mistakes again.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #191 on: March 27, 2012, 01:38:16 PM »
i dont torque any six mm bolts,i feel them up.

Offline bwaller

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #192 on: March 27, 2012, 07:23:13 PM »
ffj, I just breezed through this thread to see what you had for pistons. It's tough to see how tall the dome is. Can you take a pic of the 61mm piston side by side with a stock one sharing the same pin. It would be good to see how the compression height compares between the two. Actually measure the dome height of the 61's above the compression shoulder. This might help determine where they should sit in relation to cyl deck height.

Like so.



Offline MRieck

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #193 on: March 28, 2012, 05:54:06 AM »
Thanks Bwaller. I have been looking at the parts fiche as well as this post and Im slowly figuring out where each one goes. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=85202.msg959245#msg959245

As for measuring the deck height, I understand how you do it now but what is the ideal deck height? The piston dome should be fine. They were cut to fit a CB550 with a larger cam.

I ordered the gaskets that dynoman recomended. Then i started looking at the Dyna 2000. Boy would that be cool! Not sure if the 550 charging system can handle it though.

Now for what I think is bad news. I was installing my HD studs with my handy dandy APE stud installer. After I had the front row in I noticed the top of the stud was dimpled and had some small fractures in it. Im going to email APE and give them a call tomorrow. Im so bummed.

The APE stud installer will only make a small dimple....I have no idea how you could have damaged the stud like that. ???
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 05:55:45 AM by MRieck »
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Offline Flying J

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #194 on: March 28, 2012, 08:17:49 AM »
Its amazing what you can accomplish when you dont know what your doing.

Here are some pics of the pistons. Same height, little bigger dome, larger valve reliefs. The gentlman's express article said compression came in at 1 point above stock.


This about how much taller the dome is

Offline Flying J

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #195 on: March 28, 2012, 03:26:20 PM »
Studs are in and torqued to 8lbs. Now to the metal yard to search for some suitable Scrap steel to check the deck height.

Offline Syscrush

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #196 on: March 28, 2012, 06:22:37 PM »
APE is great! They are shipping me a few studs because im an idiot. Man I really hope this thread helps people not to make my mistakes again.
Nice.  Noted for future reference: APE = good folks.
Life is precious: wear your f'n helmet!
There's nothing more expensive than a free bike...
FWIW, I'm not a shill for Race Tech - I've just got a thing for good suspension and the RTCE's are the most cost-effective mod for these old damping rod front ends.

Offline Flying J

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #197 on: April 05, 2012, 10:01:57 PM »
So the manual says that the arrow on the piston points forward but my pistons dont have an arrow. So, the intake valve is larger in diameter then the exhaust so I put the larger diameter relief on the intake side. Is this correct?

And yes it says #1 on the piston but it is actually the piston for #4. The machine shop labeled them wrong.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #198 on: April 05, 2012, 10:54:23 PM »
thats what i would do,still check the valve to piston clearance on the overlap though,thats when both valves are open for several degrees,install two valves only with very light springs,you can then rotate and stop the cylinder on overlap and physically push the valves down by hand to measure the clearance.

Offline Flying J

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Re: CB550 engine rebuild
« Reply #199 on: April 05, 2012, 11:00:40 PM »
I dont have the tools or the springs to do that.  :'(  But from what i have been reading on the web is that I should assemble the motor and use some modeling clay over the pistons and then crank the motor over by hand 2 times and then disassemble and measure the clay for the valve clearance. Does that sound about right? I also read you can use solder since it wont distort when you take it off the piston like clay will.