Topic: NY Times ethanol article

[Nortstudio]

Couple weeks ago I was part of a thread about additives, and the cure for ethanol. For any interested, here is an article from the NY Times about the dreaded fuel....
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/20/automobiles/20GASOHOL.html?_r=1&hp

[Duke McDukiedook]

“There is a mountain of data behind this,” Mr. Thorne said. “We think E15 should perform in all vehicles.”

Perform how Mr. Thorne?

Just more bull#$%* we are being shoveled by corporate lobbyists and bureaucratic idiots, nothing new here.

[Retro Rocket]

“There is a mountain of data behind this,” Mr. Thorne said. “We think E15 should perform in all vehicles.”

Perform how Mr. Thorne?

Just more bull#$%* we are being shoveled by corporate lobbyists and bureaucratic idiots, nothing new here.

Yep, "think" and "should",  tell you everything......More bull#$%*

[ev0lve]

"As E10 has worked its way into the nation’s fuel supply, old-car restorers have taken to rebuilding carburetors, whenever possible, with larger jets to let more gasoline into the engine.

With standard jets, the usual problem is drivability, Larry Claypool, a mechanic and restorer in Frankfort, Ill., said. “The cars have hesitation or surging — symptoms of running lean.”

That there is an interesting tidbit.

[Nortstudio]

I don't even think he was talking about "all vehicles" as being ALL vehicles. I think he's covering his ass for the majority of the auto buying public, of which the vintage vehicle owners are a very small minority (forget about vintage motorcycles). These hotshots are never going to listen to 1% of 1% of the people that pour money into cars (pun intended!).

We are screwed, and there is obviously no turning back at this point.

I just found it interesting that shortly after we were speaking of this - it shows up in the Times.

[Gaither]

Nort

Thanks for the link and the headsup and thank you other fellas for your thoughts.

As we all know, ethanol in gasoline is crap!!!

FWIW, I have been feeding a Ford Crown Vic Interceptor Ethanol Free gas for the last 2 partial tanks (it isn't 100% in the tank yet). I have only added about 12 gallons twice to a 20 gal tank.

Even so, I have measured a 15% increase in mpg local driving. I expect it to continue to increase a bit more as it gets to 100% and the computer adjusts to the better fuel.

It is a #%&&@# shame to have this mess forced upon ALL of us! While there is at least some truth in the article, "they" have ignored the damage and expense experienced with marine and industrial aircooled engines. It is tremendous. "They" couldn't care less! What a #$%*!!!

[TwoTired]

I know junk science when I see it.

"The shift toward alcohol-dosed gas began after the oil shocks of the 1970s and accelerated in the 1990s with a federal mandate that fuels contain a minimum level of oxygen, a measure intended to reduce carbon monoxide emissions. Alcohol blends helped to meet that requirement, and as a side benefit raised the gasoline’s octane rating — a potential performance advantage. "
The "potential advantage" requires mechanical modifications.  The octane rating doesn't increase the energy content.  The octane rating is really only an anti-knock index.  Higher compression engines need higher octane.  Putting higher octane in an engine with lower compression doesn't give ANY performance advantage.  This is misleading journalism preying on the the uninformed, pure and simple.

"Since the beginning of the 2011 season, Nascar’s top three national racing series have been using a Sunoco blend of E15 rated at 104 octane. Nascar has reported a small horsepower improvement — less than 1 percent — and a slight reduction in fuel economy.

The race-sanctioning group acknowledges that the switch in fuels was driven by factors other than on-track performance. "
Criminy, NASCAR engines are built specifically for the race and for the specific fuel required of them.  They are in no way on par with standard production engines.  You can run very high compression engines on ethanol that make big power.  The power comes from the compression increase, NOT the alcohol?!

"Changing to larger carburetor jets is one way that racing teams are achieving higher horsepower figures with E15, Mr. Darby, the Nascar official, said. “The teams will richen the fuel that the engine sees a little bit.” "
Does anybody really think that the only change to a NASCAR vehicle is richening the fuel mix?  I'm insulted by the author if he thinks I'm foolish enough to believe that!

Notice that even in an article the purports to expose the negatives regarding ethanol in gas, it still has incorrect "factoids/assumptions" to uneducate readers?

How long has it been since journalism was an "honorable" profession?

[Nortstudio]

How long has it been since journalism was an "honorable" profession?

A very, very long time. My studio has been "fortunate" enough to be mentioned 3 times in the illustrious Times. So excited were we, by the honor, that it took a second, each time, to recognize that 2 of the three had misinformation in it!

So much for our 15 minutes

They did print a correction though, but it's really not the same.

Didn't you know TT, NASCAR runs on shoving whole ears of corn directly into the gas tank. No adverse effect at all!!!

[Nikkisixx]

"When used in lawnmowers, leafblowers and other equipment not designed for gasohol, the extra heat can be a safety issue, according to groups opposing the E15 waiver. "


Out on a ride today I saw a large industrial riding mower burning to the ground on the side of the road.  Maybe it had been running on E15?

[HondaMan]

I know junk science when I see it.

  This is misleading journalism preying on the the uninformed, pure and simple.

Notice that even in an article the purports to expose the negatives regarding ethanol in gas, it still has incorrect "factoids/assumptions" to uneducate readers?

How long has it been since journalism was an "honorable" profession?

Bravo, TT. 

In January, the Environmental Protection Agency approved gasoline-ethanol blends up to 15 percent ethanol, called E15, in cars, light trucks and sport utilities built after 2000. The E15 waiver raised a decades-old cap of 10 percent on ethanol blends for general use.

"APPROVED"? FORCED is the operative word...

In these bikes, the fuel hoses turn stiff in about 1 season from this alcohol, as do the O-rings in the tees that feed the carbs. If not monitored, this leads to fuel leaks that can easily cause engine fires.

Or lawn-mower fires, as noted above.

In cars, like several of mine, with carbs, the situation is similar, requiring a fuel hose change about every 2 years or else the hoses get so stiff that the hose clamps won't keep the fuel inside anymore. The gaskets in the carbs dry out and shrink, causing vacuum leaks and forcing a rebuild about every 3 years. IMHO, it's always been 90% about legislating the older vehicles off the road, and 10% giving subsidies to farmer groups to obtain votes...

I'd better stop, or I'll get on a rant...

One thing that can help slow down the effects of this crap is to add top oil, like diesel fuel (REAL diesel fuel) or one of the commercially available varieties, about 1-2 ounces per 5 gallon fillup. I was consistent about this for a long time after gasohol apeared here, then stopped for a while, developed the leaks and hard hoses, then started using it again (with new hoses). I use the Bardahl or Valvoline top oils, as they come in convenient bottles with 2 ounce caps. 

[Nortstudio]

I use the Bardahl or Valvoline top oils, as they come in convenient bottles with 2 ounce caps.

HM, what are you referring to when you say "top oil" that you put in the gas???

Is this an additive?  Or actual motor oil?  Sounds like a dumb question, but a search for top oilmonly shows regular motor oil.

Thanks

[bryanj]

I think TT is talking about "Upper Cylinder Lubricant" STP used to be one (Otherwise known as SH1T)

[HondaMan]

I use the Bardahl or Valvoline top oils, as they come in convenient bottles with 2 ounce caps.

HM, what are you referring to when you say "top oil" that you put in the gas???

Is this an additive?  Or actual motor oil?  Sounds like a dumb question, but a search for top oilmonly shows regular motor oil.

Thanks

It's a very light oil, with some tiny amount of detergent additive, usually. It does not smoke, even when mixed too much, as it combusts. In a pinch, I have used (non-bio) diesel: it is almost the same stuff, minus the suds. I have a very old Bardahl bottle that I have been using because it fits on the bike, been buying the oil itself from Checker (O'Reilly, now) in quart bottles and refilling it (for years). Look for it as "Top End Lubricant" or "Valve Lubricant" or just "Top Oil" on their shelves. I've also seen it as "Piston Ring Lubricant" on occasion. It all works, and is pretty much the same thing. These Fours really like the stuff.

[Nortstudio]

Thanks HM.  I am going to take a look for the stuff.  Can't hurt to have a little extra juice for the engine, especially because there appear to be NO fuel stations in NYC that carry non-ethanol gas. 

[hyde7278]

As someone who works on cars for a living my opinion on ethenol is that it is crap. Yes it does produce more horsepower ant the cost of fuel efficiency. It also causes a ton of problems with even todays highly sufisticated engines. Carbon build up is one of the main problem and misfires. GM flex fuel cars/mostly trucks have been notorious for running rough and causing the MIL to come on to the point that quite a few techs recomend to the owners to not run E85 in them. And as a slap in the face it cost more to use ethenol laced fuels, take E85 as an example, the vehicle uses roughly 15-20% E85 to get the same range as useing non E85 but the cost of E85 if you can find it is not 15-20% les it is maybe a few cents less. It also uses more then a gallon of fossil fuels to produce 1 gallon of ethenol (tractors,harvesters,refinerys,ect use fossil fuels). In my opinion it the politicians and the government who got behind ethenol and are pushing it because its to late to admit they were wrong about it.

Just my 2 cents

Sorry about the rant, but as someone that works in the auto indestry I see much better alternitives.

[Gaither]

'Haven't seen/heard of Bardahl around here in years. That stuff was fairly popular here 60 years ago and a long time afterward. Also sold in quart cans folks used as an engine oil additive (the "top oil" was in small cans). Much better than ethanol!!!

I used it in a '47 Cushman when I was 13 to 16 and, later in a '41 Chevie (that I thought was an airplane!). The ol' Cushman was completely restored and had an .060 bore and an alum HC head. It was clocked at 60 (not bad for two 4.00X8 wheelbarrow tires). 'Loved it!

I'm gonna check O'Reilly's for Bardahl!

[Nortstudio]

Checked their site.  Seems they have it at:

Wal-Mart
Autozone         
Fred Meyer        
O'Reiley Auto Parts        
CSK Auto        
Pep Boys Auto                 
Napa Auto

[camelman]

Gasoline isn't going to be around forever, and just because our fuel choices are changing doesn't mean they are bad. The technologies just need to be improved. We've had a century to perfect the Otto cycle and diesel cycle engines with fossil fuel power. Just think what we can do in another 20 years with "greener" fuels. Let's not forget that we are dealing with antiques here too. We can't be upset about them being phased out just like we don't have a leg to stand on regarding keeping coal burning trains on the tracks. These bikes are amazing, but we have to use our ingenuity to keep them running.

Regarding expensive ethanol that requires excessive fuel to produce, this is a passing phase. I work in renewable energy consulting and am working with a number of companies on how to make ethanol without consuming petroleum. However, regardless of all that, our cheap fuel years are over, and hopefully all those subsidies that come out of our tax dollars to make it appear that our fuel is cheap will be applied to better fuels too.

FYI I love my motorcycles and plan to ride the rest of my life.

Camelman

[Retro Rocket]

Still, ethanol is crap..!! and from everything i have read it is still terrible in new cars, reducing service intervals and the life of the engine, it is not a breakthrough fuel or the evolution of the internal combustion engine, it is political bull#$%* and nothing else......

[Gaither]

Camelman

Just concentrate on hydrogen.

Forget about hauling it around or piping it. Just generate it at the "filling station" (and save millions in logistic expense). I realize that is far too simple and practical for the oil companies - but to #%&& with the oil companies! We are at their "mercy" now!

IMHO, hydrogen is being over-looked intentionally - by everyone involved. ('Not "shooting" at you personally in any way.)

Retro

You are exactly correct!!!

[Retro Rocket]

Camelman

Just concentrate on hydrogen.

Forget about hauling it around or piping it. Just generate it at the "filling station" (and save millions in logistic expense). I realize that is far too simple and practical for the oil companies - but to #%&& with the oil companies! We are at their "mercy" now!

IMHO, hydrogen is being over-looked intentionally - by everyone involved. ('Not "shooting" at you personally in any way.)

Retro

You are exactly correct!!!

As you are with Hydrogen  ....

[Nortstudio]

Can we paaaaalease get to anti-gravity already?

I've got my 1976 CB550 inspired UFO waiting in the wings for this technology!

[Fritz]

Retro

You are exactly correct!!!

As you are with Hydrogen  ....

I wonder what effects hydrogen would have on my fuel hoses. And what size it will require my main jets to be?

 

[HondaMan]

Retro

You are exactly correct!!!

As you are with Hydrogen  ....

I wonder what effects hydrogen would have on my fuel hoses. And what size it will require my main jets to be?

 

4.5 (mm hole size...)   

I'm working on a hydrogen project (3 years, now, slow going) in LA. It takes a LOT (spelled L-O-T) of hydrogen to run a conventional engine, even MORE to run a turbine.

[Gaither]

Nort

'Guess I just haven't been paying attention. I'm in several of those stores frequently. Gotta open my eyes!

I'm gonna poke some in the fuel tank - as per Hondaman.