Author Topic: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)  (Read 4443 times)

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mrjack55

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I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« on: May 14, 2011, 05:35:05 PM »
I just couldn't leave well enough alone.  All I needed to do was install the air box, and she could have gone to the shop for state inspection.  I would have been riding by the end of next week.  BUT NOOOOO!  Why would I do that?  I was in the garage today looking at the heap and said; "I do have that All Balls steering bearing kit, maybe I'll just take a quick look see".  DUMB A$$!!  :-[

So there I was pulling wires out of the headlight bucket.  Which someone had already been in once, and not all was well.  Then I was fight with the throttle cables.  Got the gauges, clutch and choke taken care of.  Right now, I think I have everything but the front brake ready to go. 

Now, how to lift the beast and remove the front end?  Tried to use the lift table, and instantly remembered that I failed physics class.  There was too much weight on the end of the lift and...you guessed it...TILT!  I bought a regular MC/ATV lift.  This should work...WRONG AGAIN GENIUS!  Not only was it too small/short, but the stock 4-4 exhaust hangs lower than the frame.  I'm guessing that supporting the weight of the bike by the exhaust pipes is not a good idea.  At least I figured that one out all by my little self.

So then here are my questions guys.  How do you guys lift and support your bikes when you are taking off the front end?  How high does it need to be in order to get the forks out of the trees?  Tire on or tire off?  Pros and cons of either?  Do you *NEED* to take the tire off, or is it cool to remove everything at once?

I'm in a pickle folks and I need your help in a MAJOR way. :o  That is until I have to put everything back.  Then I'll need all of you once again.  ;)

Thanks in advance for any advice.  Pictures are always welcome.

Oh, and try to not flame me to bad for writing the thread equivalent of War and Peace.  ::)  I can take it, but have a heart will ya fellas.

Offline Nortstudio

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2011, 06:01:21 PM »
At this point, after removing all the other stuff, will removing the pipes be that much worse?  Just might need some gaskets, but they're cheap.

I think a lot of guys hoist it up with a garage beam and some straps under the front end.  I'm sure someone will chime in.  But let them know what you have available to you.  Garage or no?  etc

Being in Brooklyn, i'm no help, I don't even have a tree to throw a line over.... :)
1976 CB550K...in progress
1975 CL360...eventually custom
2009 Husqvarna TE610

a blog about wrenching in Brooklyn, NY

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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2011, 06:09:09 PM »
Still got your center stand?  Put it on the center stand then the bike will be closer to balanced...you can rock the bike back to get the front wheel off the ground and slide in some jackstands or bricks, chunks of wood, other supports, etc.  Helpful to have a helper but can be done solo...Be CAREFUL!
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Offline Spades

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2011, 06:49:56 PM »
I just did this two nights ago. The All Balls kit is really nice .. but newho.

I took my normal craftsman jack and supported the frame where the center stand should be. Lifted the front end just far enough to get the front tire off the ground. I then removed the bars and the top of the triple tree. I then rolled the wheel out with the forks still attached.

Once all of it was clear, I removed the forks from the lower triple tree bracket to allow an easier time putting it back together.

I then put the lower triple tree back through the neck after installing the kit and put the top on. I then replaced the forks using the weight of the bike to slowly help me put them through. This was done with three people because I happened to have the extra hands .. one steadying the bike, one working the jack and the last wiggling the forks slowly and carefully into place.

I hope this helps!
'78 CB750K Bobber
'79 CB650 Cafe

Offline Really?

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I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2011, 06:50:28 PM »
Centerstand with weight on the back of the seat.

I don't own a lift because I don't want do damage the pipes. They make no sense to me. I sit on a short stool.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 06:52:01 PM by TipperT »
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

The Wife's Bike - 750K5
The Kid's Bike - 750K3

Offline johnrdupree

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2011, 06:58:54 PM »
So then here are my questions guys.  How do you guys lift and support your bikes when you are taking off the front end?  How high does it need to be in order to get the forks out of the trees?  Tire on or tire off?  Pros and cons of either?  Do you *NEED* to take the tire off, or is it cool to remove everything at once?

This is how I did it (am still doing, actually) on my 550.  If the 750 frame has a cross member in a good spot you can throw together a similar stand in a few minutes.


It's just a 2x4 with a 1" hole drilled through it and then lopped off through the center of the hole.  Screw some braces on the bottom and you're ready.  I already had the rear tire off so I just rocked the bike back until the front tire was off the ground and measured (roughly) how high up the frame cross member was.  That determined the length of the 2x4.  If you're not going to remove the rear wheel, just rock it back as far as it will go and then measure.  All you need is for the front tire to be 3" or 4" off the ground.  If I had to make another one I'd drill the hole close to the edge of the 2x4 instead of in the center to make sure it didn't foul the oil filter housing.

You have to have the front wheel off the bike before removing the forks, otherwise the bike would have to be jacked waaaay up to slide the fork/wheel assembly out of the triple clamps.  It's not too difficult, just take your time and think your way through it.

Of course I'm assuming you still have a centerstand.  If not, please ignore me.

Good Luck,
~john
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 07:01:26 PM by johnrdupree »
1975 Honda CB550K1
1991 Honda ST1100
1989 Suzuki GS500E
1954 NSU Lambretta 125 (long term project)

Offline pdxPope

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2011, 07:23:57 PM »
I use the rafters & rope method. But if you don't have that option available to you, I would second the idea of removing the exhaust & going back to the MC lift.

Whichever one you go with, you'll want to support it pretty well. Chances are you'll need to use a little 'persuasion' to get the old bearing races out of the neck and you certainly don't want the bike in a precarious balance while you are whanging away w/ a 20oz hammer.

Removing the forks w/ the wheels still attached is fine. But you'll probably end up taking them apart, anyway.


-JP
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While the unicorn whispers "...for adult toys."

Offline Really?

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2011, 08:16:23 PM »
Automotive jack stands in addition will give ease of mind as well.  See the jack stand on the bottom left?

See that leather wound hammer?  Would love a new one.  I have had that over 30 years.

Get it all done while you are there anyway.






« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 08:23:25 PM by TipperT »
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

The Wife's Bike - 750K5
The Kid's Bike - 750K3

mrjack55

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2011, 06:24:40 AM »
Thanks guys.  I do love this forum.  ;D
I don't have access to rafters in my garage as it is finished.  And my better half would kick my tush if I started taring down dry wall.  It's a small old house, and I think hanging anything from the rafters would lead to my bed ending up in the garage.  Not good!

Scott:  I thought a tree does grow in Brooklyn.  Go find it and hang a motor from it.  :P

I'll take a good long look at it today, and figure the best solution using a little bit of everyone's advice.  I have plenty of floor jacks and jack stands lying around from my hot rod building days.  So I should be able to get her up in the air one way or another.  It's really great to get the input from guys who have been there before you.  Nothing can top experience.  Seeing as this is my first motorcycle project, it's awesome to have you all looking over my shoulder so to speak. 

I am a solo act in the garage, so I'll do the best I can with what I got.  I'll just tell Jenn (the better half), to keep an ear out for any loud crashes or bangs.  Just dial 911 honey, don't come out to see what happened, just dial!

You guys rock!
Jack

Offline Nortstudio

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2011, 06:37:09 AM »
I read that book when I first moved her 10 years ago. Thought it would be a good primer. But alas, it never explained how to rig one of these lifts up. Still a good book though :)
1976 CB550K...in progress
1975 CL360...eventually custom
2009 Husqvarna TE610

a blog about wrenching in Brooklyn, NY

“Success is dependent on effort.”
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Offline Toxic

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2011, 07:57:54 AM »
Go back to the ATV lift and build a cradle so the lift is lifting only on the frame rails.
-cut a 1/2" thick square piece of plywood to fit then center it on the top of the ATV lift
-cut two lengths of 1.5" 1.5" pine to slide between the stock pipes.
-these rails will lift only on the frame rails

Without a center stand or rafters, it is your best option.

I use mine allot

Offline 754

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2011, 12:27:37 PM »
If you have c-stand, can access oil filter or frame legend from underneath, its even easier.
 Just use a jack and a pad under filter or frame, and lift up.. got to be a bit careful though if pounding on frame races..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Roach

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2011, 12:33:09 PM »
i put 2 eye screws in a beam in my ceiling and used tie down straps under where my coils sit lift it about 6 inches up and no problems
1978 CB550K Cafe Racer

Offline bikebitzofvt

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2011, 02:39:11 PM »
Alright, Tolstoy, here ya go!

If the bike has a center stand take a small floor jack and a piece of wood, jack just behind the oil filter housing 'til the rear tire just touches the ground.  Use the wood as a cushion so the jack doesn't scratch up the engine.  Go too far and the bike can tip.  If you do this on your lift you should be able to chock the rear tire in place and add a few tie-downs to the rear for stability.  You might be able to put the bike on the lift backwards and lock the rear wheel in the original vise??  Jack stands to the frame rails are a good move too. 

Have fun putting the wiring in the headlight bucket back together!  If you didn't label each wire, try tapeing a blown up version of the wiring diagram to the handlebars as a guide during reassembly. 

The actual bearing installation is pretty straight forward.  Here's a quick rundown from a post I sent a while back:

All Balls makes some good kits with OK quality bearings.  They include easy to follow instructions for figuring stack height and spacer selection.  Installation usually involves a spacer (thick washer) under the bottom bearing, to make up the height difference of the new tapered bearings being shorter than the old balls and races. 

Drive the old cones out of the frame with a long punch.  A few taps at different spots at a time - you don't want to cock the races in the bore.

Grease the new bearings.  Put a gob of grease in your palm and force the grease into the race with a swiping motion - tough to explain, but easy to do.  I've tried several bearing packer tools but haven't found any that work better than the old fashioned, albeit really messy way!

Stick the new races in the freezer overnight.  I put 'em in clean plastic bags and stuff em right in with the ice.  Once cold they'll usually drop right into the frame.  A few taps should set them in place if needed.

A chisel and hammer usually makes short work of getting the old lower race off the stem.  I use a pair of ancient wood chisels (don't tell my Dad!) and work 180 degrees apart.  A few raps and it's off.

For putting the new bearing on the lower stem I use a piece of galvinized pipe I've had around for ever.  Don't forget the spacer!!!  Dust seal slides on next (if applicable) then the bearing.  I've also used a length of an old fork tube on some bigger ones.  Only hit the center of the bearing or you risk damaging it.  On aluminum stems (modern sport bike) I freeze the stem but I haven't noticed any difference with steel ones.

Grease the surface of the stem.  I really paint it on there, a trick learned from MX bikes.  This prevents rust - it's not like the grease is going anywhere, but moisture can always find a way in!

Slide the stem into the frame.  Install top bearing, then factoty dust cap and nut.  I add 15 to 25  lbs. to the factory torque spec and tighten it down, then loosen and retorque to factory spec.  This helps seat the bearings and cones. 

Now put the rest back together and you should be good to go!  You'll really notice a difference with the tapered steering bearings, they're soooo much smoother!

And I'm proud to say my response is much longer than your original post :) :)
"If it ain't broke you aren't riding it hard enough!"

77 CB750K7, 77 KZ1000B

mrjack55

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2011, 05:29:21 PM »


And I'm proud to say my response is much longer than your original post :) :)

Wow, you win bikebitzofvt!  Strong work.  ;)

I spent most of the morning over engineering the support system.  Believe it or not, it was a couple of hours of pondering.  This lift, that jack?  Those straps or the wood?  So here is the final product.





Yep, after all that I wound up using the jack from my Subbie and some old landscaping blocks and wood.  Simple is often the way to go ain't it?

Once that was all said and done I took the front end off. 



Everything was well greased with green (marine?) grease.





The top outer race came right out.  The bottom however put up a bit of a fight.  Then, the worst happened.  The race went crooked and jammed.  >:( :'(  I did manage to get it out, but the damage was already done.  I spent some time smoothing out the race seat as best as I could. 

I grabbed the new races out of the freezer.  After I sprayed the race and the frame VERY well with Rem Oil, I tried the top first.  Right in!  Now for the bottom...tap tap tap...right in! Whew!  ;D  Lucky! 

Next was the old inner bottom race on the steering shaft.  I listened to Hondaman's advice and first used a Dremel with a cutting wheel to put a nick into the race.  Then I whacked it with a chisel and it popped right off.  Awesome!

As it sits right now, the races are in the frame and the tree is in the freezer.  I figured it can't hurt.  Might shrink it a little.  I measured the difference in bearing pack size, so I know which washer to use.  All I need to do is get some good grease, pack the bearings and put all back together.  Then when it goes to the shop for state inspection, I'll ask the guys to go over it with a fine tooth comb.  I feel that it is a good idea to have someone check my work before I ride her.  Being a noob and all.  ;)

Not to bad for an "easy" Sunday in the garage.

Offline 754

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2011, 11:55:15 PM »
 If your freezer cant get the bearings cold in an hour or two, it aint freezing....
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Really?

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2011, 02:30:30 PM »
Quote
I feel that it is a good idea to have someone check my work before I ride her.  Being a noob and all. 


How are you getting it there?  ;D
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

The Wife's Bike - 750K5
The Kid's Bike - 750K3

mrjack55

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2011, 06:05:34 PM »
Quote
I feel that it is a good idea to have someone check my work before I ride her.  Being a noob and all. 


How are you getting it there?  ;D

I'll be getting it there on a trailer Tipper.  I'm not as crazy as I used to be, so a trailer it is.

Well, I have the new bearings in and the stem installed.




I followed Hondaman's book, and tightened the stem until it almost locked it up, then backed it off a half turn and then tightened just to the point of tight.  I'm not sure, but something just doesn't feel "right".  I guess I expected it to be a lot freer or easier to turn.  It's pretty smooth, I don't fee any binding, but I don't know if it's perfect.  It would be great if I had a local SOHC4 buddy who has the experience to share, but alas no one to be found.  I'll continue to put it back together and see how it feels with the weight of the tire on it.  In the end, I still have to take it to a shop for state inspection.  That will be the moment of truth.  They'll either tell me it fine or it's f^@*ed.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 04:04:26 AM by mrjack55 »

Offline bikebitzofvt

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2011, 07:06:35 PM »
Jack-

Looks like you've done some great work so far!

Trying to describe the right feel is difficult.  There should be some drag but it should turn smoothly.  Going from memory the washer goes on the stem under the bottom bearing, right?

Some bikes have a weight spec for the stem bearings - you would hold a spring scale (I used a fish scale) hooked to the lower tree and see what the scale reads as it starts to turn.  I have no idea what the number would be like on our bikes... 

Going from memory they should feel pretty tight, they'll bed in & start to move more smoothly as the bike is ridden.

Keep at it & you'll be riding it in no time!

Tom
"If it ain't broke you aren't riding it hard enough!"

77 CB750K7, 77 KZ1000B

mrjack55

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Re: I'm a Dope! (Sorry it's a little long winded)
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2011, 12:35:34 PM »
Jack-

Looks like you've done some great work so far!

Trying to describe the right feel is difficult.  There should be some drag but it should turn smoothly.  Going from memory the washer goes on the stem under the bottom bearing, right?

Some bikes have a weight spec for the stem bearings - you would hold a spring scale (I used a fish scale) hooked to the lower tree and see what the scale reads as it starts to turn.  I have no idea what the number would be like on our bikes... 

Going from memory they should feel pretty tight, they'll bed in & start to move more smoothly as the bike is ridden.

Keep at it & you'll be riding it in no time!

Tom

Thanks Tom.  I'll keep plugging away at her.  Now, if I could only make up my mind on which way I want to go with it.  I think it will be more of a rest-o-mod than a cafe build.  We'll see.  I'll try to update my build thread later tonight.