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Author Topic: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?  (Read 1682 times)

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Offline Analysis

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Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« on: March 28, 2011, 07:36:30 PM »
Hi guys,

I am currently rebuilding my cb750k4 and i split the cases, put a new cam chain (from Z1 http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=2923 ) but it appears to be too small. Do I need the master link? I've fit it around the sprocket and everything looks good except the sprocket is just a fraction too tight to fit right on the camshaft. I'll take pictures if I'm not making sense.

Thanks
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Offline Silverback

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2011, 07:53:05 PM »
It's not the easiest part to install until you experience the trick. You don't have the tensioner in by chance? Be sure the chain is aligned properly on the crankshaft sprocket, they can get off a bit. Also, make sure the cam is fully seated.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 09:56:17 PM by Silverback »
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Chris
"It's hard to define soul. You get it in art. You get it in music, and occasionally you get it in machinery."
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Offline camelman

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2011, 08:19:22 PM »
I don't know if this applies to the 750 or not, but I had the same issue with a 400F a couple weeks ago.  Turns out I just didn't have the head/cylinders/block seated fully.  They were only up 1/16" or so, but it was enough to make the task impossible.

Camelman
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Offline Analysis

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2011, 10:02:39 PM »
I've got the cylinder studs all nice and tight so I'm really hoping the head/cylinders are seated correctly! How can I check if the crankshaft chain alignment is correct? I'll fiddle with it for a while.
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Offline Silverback

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2011, 12:19:14 PM »
How did it go? I usually hold the cam chain in my hand and turn the motor to make sure I have it aligned at the bottom. I have a tiny bore flashlight I use to look down there if I need to. You can do this after you have the cam in place, but with sprocket off, of course. I then turn the motor to TDC for 1 and 4 holding the chain. I measure using a degree wheel. Align the cam, put chain on sprocket starting at the exhaust side of the sprocket. Be sure to keep the exhaust side(pointing toward front of motor) of the cam chain tight while installing chain. Finally, attach sprocket to cam while still holding the front pointing part of the cam chain tight. Repeat final step adjusting sprocket chain engagement as needed to get the sprocket aligned properly. A slotted cam gear makes this easier than non-slotted, but allows for adjustment, which would be the next step.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 03:14:22 PM by Silverback »
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Chris
"It's hard to define soul. You get it in art. You get it in music, and occasionally you get it in machinery."
78 CB750F racer
78 CB750F stock
75 CB750K Baby Blue Sold (She was a great bike!)
71 CB750K (rusty rod)
77 cb550F Sold :(  Bought it Back :)
Basket case 73 CB750, 77 CB750F (Building now)
01 Aprilia Falco
76 kz400
96 BMW K1100LT

Offline Analysis

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2011, 12:29:02 PM »
Ì managed to get it on, took a bit of dangling around but it finally worked. Now I'm trying to install the pushrod/tensioner part on the outside and the chain is so tight that I can't even get the thing on. What now?
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2011, 12:41:05 PM »
Quote from: Analysis on March 29, 2011, 12:29:02 PM
Ì managed to get it on, took a bit of dangling around but it finally worked. Now I'm trying to install the pushrod/tensioner part on the outside and the chain is so tight that I can't even get the thing on. What now?
That shouldn't be a problem. Did you loosen the lock bolt and slide the plunger as far into the housing,away from the chain,as possible?
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Offline Analysis

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2011, 12:49:01 PM »
Yeah I got the pushrod all the way inside before attempting. When i use my finger as the pushrod it doesn't really move even with as much force as I can muster. I wonder if I've routed the chain incorrectly. I couldn't find a good diagram of it so that may be a problem. It seems okay though.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2011, 01:16:34 PM »
Quote from: Analysis on March 29, 2011, 12:49:01 PM
Yeah I got the pushrod all the way inside before attempting. When i use my finger as the pushrod it doesn't really move even with as much force as I can muster. I wonder if I've routed the chain incorrectly. I couldn't find a good diagram of it so that may be a problem. It seems okay though.
Oh well that's OK, its a new chain. But can you get the adjuster housing on the cylinder?

As to routing, if you'v got the sprocket on the cam, I can't imagine any way it could be improperly routed. Not enough play. But I'll reserve total commitment to that idea, and let someone else confirm it.
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Offline Analysis

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2011, 01:29:45 PM »
No I can't get the adjuster down, the pushrod, while being pushed back, is still too long to fit. there is about 2-3 mm of space between the cylinder and the adjuster
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Offline Silverback

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2011, 01:49:10 PM »
Is there no slack in the chain anywhere? If installed properly, the side opposite the tensioner should be tight and a bit of slack on the tensioner side. Does it look centered on the sprockets and through the channel in the head? What happens if you turn the crank, slowly with the cam bearing caps installed? Does the crank move a bit before the cam starts turning?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 01:50:57 PM by Silverback »
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Chris
"It's hard to define soul. You get it in art. You get it in music, and occasionally you get it in machinery."
78 CB750F racer
78 CB750F stock
75 CB750K Baby Blue Sold (She was a great bike!)
71 CB750K (rusty rod)
77 cb550F Sold :(  Bought it Back :)
Basket case 73 CB750, 77 CB750F (Building now)
01 Aprilia Falco
76 kz400
96 BMW K1100LT

Offline MRieck

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2011, 02:31:36 PM »
Quote from: Analysis on March 29, 2011, 12:49:01 PM
Yeah I got the pushrod all the way inside before attempting. When i use my finger as the pushrod it doesn't really move even with as much force as I can muster. I wonder if I've routed the chain incorrectly. I couldn't find a good diagram of it so that may be a problem. It seems okay though.
Me too
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2011, 03:02:42 PM »
Quote from: Analysis on March 29, 2011, 01:29:45 PM
No I can't get the adjuster down, the pushrod, while being pushed back, is still too long to fit. there is about 2-3 mm of space between the cylinder and the adjuster
Yup somethings wrong. Should all fit up nicely, no resistance. I guess the chain could be routed wrong, though i can'tpicture in my minds eye, how. I see MRieck is coyly agreeing, so it must be possible.
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Offline kos

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2011, 06:14:30 PM »
Here is proper cam chain routing. I went to this site where he purchased this chain and he sells master links, so this chain could have been cut too short, if the routing does not solve problem.

BTW...I never use master links in cam chains...too much risk of failure.

Mark@ M3Racing.com
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Offline Analysis

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2011, 08:18:17 PM »
Quote from: Silverback on March 29, 2011, 01:49:10 PM
Is there no slack in the chain anywhere? If installed properly, the side opposite the tensioner should be tight and a bit of slack on the tensioner side. Does it look centered on the sprockets and through the channel in the head? What happens if you turn the crank, slowly with the cam bearing caps installed? Does the crank move a bit before the cam starts turning?

There is a bit of slack (though really not much at all) on the tensioner side. The sprockets do look all centered. When I turn the crank, the chain turns and yes the crank moves a bit before the cam. Thanks for that pictures Mark I'm going to try and see if that's how I have it routed - though that looks exactly how I have it.
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Offline Silverback

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2011, 10:08:39 PM »
I just counted 47 link plates on a Camellia chain.
The fact that the crank moved a bit before the cam means that there indeed slack, but maybe not where you need it. It is very important that there is no slack in the chain opposite the tensioner (front of motor). Just one extra link in that span might be your difference and cause the delayed action on the cam when turning the crank. When your tensioner is in and adjusted properly all slack should be removed from the cam chain, resulting in immediate cam rotation when turning the crank forward or backwards.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 06:17:54 AM by Silverback »
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Chris
"It's hard to define soul. You get it in art. You get it in music, and occasionally you get it in machinery."
78 CB750F racer
78 CB750F stock
75 CB750K Baby Blue Sold (She was a great bike!)
71 CB750K (rusty rod)
77 cb550F Sold :(  Bought it Back :)
Basket case 73 CB750, 77 CB750F (Building now)
01 Aprilia Falco
76 kz400
96 BMW K1100LT

Offline Analysis

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2011, 12:32:44 PM »
Okay I got it! Thanks for all the help. It was actually quite a stupid case of me not pushing the pushrod ALL the way back, there was a bit of buildup which caused the rod to stop about 5mm before it was supposed to. Thanks again1
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Tsubaki Cam Chain Too Small?
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2011, 01:46:10 PM »
Quote from: Analysis on March 30, 2011, 12:32:44 PM
Okay I got it! Thanks for all the help. It was actually quite a stupid case of me not pushing the pushrod ALL the way back, there was a bit of buildup which caused the rod to stop about 5mm before it was supposed to. Thanks again1
That was my highest probability resolution, but you had said you had pushed it back and I didn't want to say "try again". The only chain routing issues I've ever seen have been too loose because the roller or slider were left out.

Anyway, glad you found it. Nothing like a fresh chain!
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."
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