Author Topic: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?  (Read 12458 times)

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Offline Beastman

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How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« on: April 03, 2011, 11:11:55 PM »
I understand the concept of doing plug chops.  But is there an easier way to tell if the bike is running too hot?  Someone somewhere said you should be able to keep your hand on the valve cover without it being too hot.

Any other ways to tell?

PS what happened to the search option within the forum?  All I see is the stupid google custom search that is good for nothing.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2011, 12:41:26 AM »
I understand the concept of doing plug chops.  But is there an easier way to tell if the bike is running too hot?  Someone somewhere said you should be able to keep your hand on the valve cover without it being too hot.

Careful what you quote.  You can likely put your hand on a 550 valve cover when its 40F outside.  But, not when it's 90 outside.  It is and air cooled motor, so the air temperature and the amount of air flow over the engine is going to determine how hot it gets, as well as the mixture conditions.

Any other ways to tell?
Of course.  Instrumentation, or one of those $30 Harbor Freight IR temp guns.

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Offline OneWheelDrive

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2011, 12:45:53 AM »
So, how hot is too hot?  I have a thermocouple that I use to test header temp. 
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2011, 10:30:51 AM »
One way to tell is when the oil seepage from the head begins smoking profusely. Another way is when it gets sluggish then seizes.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2011, 10:37:33 AM »
Uh, oh...do I feel an oil-like thread coming on?  ;D
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Offline Really?

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2011, 10:39:28 AM »
I do not know how true this is but I have read if the motor makes a ticking sound after you shut it off, it is too hot.

Where would you point the IR temp gun and what temp would be at that point?  You would get different readings at different points (i.e. right at the point the header joins the head, top of the header bend, middle, bottom, etc...).

I have been curious about this and the temps one should see. 
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Offline ekpent

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2011, 10:40:52 AM »
You may hear the engine pinging also if its overheating.

Offline OneWheelDrive

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2011, 10:44:42 AM »
One way to tell is when the oil seepage from the head begins smoking profusely. Another way is when it gets sluggish then seizes.

Yeah, that wasn't the most helpful of replies....

My question stemmed from the fact that I dropped my needles one clip to the center position, or one above stock for my 022A '74 550 carbs to fix a rich condition across all 4 carbs.  The bike's running killer now, but a plug chop now shows it's a bit lean with the plugs being pretty light tan/white.  I don't want to burn up exhaust valves by running too hot, but I have no oil leakage, so smokey oil likely will not be a precursory indicator, and I don't like the sound of "sluggish then siezes"....

Also, every air cooled bike I've had makes a slight ticking sound as it's cooling, I understand it's very normal.  Pinging while operating though I think would be bad.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 10:46:38 AM by OneWheelDrive »
1975 CB550 cafe
1971 CB500 stocker
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2010 Ducati Monster S4RS *sold*
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Offline ekpent

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2011, 10:50:49 AM »
One thing to remember about these "air cooled motors" is that not only does the air keep the engine cool but so does the proper fuel amount,even more so in a two stroker.Sometimes safer to be a tad towards the rich rather than leaning to far to the lean.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 10:54:47 AM by ekpent »

Offline OldSchool_IsCool

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2011, 10:51:16 AM »
Bluing of the header pipes is a clue too.
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Offline OneWheelDrive

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2011, 10:52:59 AM »
leaning to far to the lean.

Pun intended? :-D
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2011, 10:56:10 AM »
If the plugs are burning a clean white I'd richen it up one notch to be safe and check them. (I'd err on the slightly rich side) If you richen it up and it begins to run worse then you're close. In that case take it back one notch and be done with it. You really won't know for sure until you go slightly rich or run it on a dyno for a/f mixture. Don't want pinging either! I can't hear in that range so I couldn't describe that  :(

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Offline Staz

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2011, 01:19:31 PM »
What, a SOHC4 that doesn't leak (yet)?!  ;D

Mine doesn't leak yet lol, and what is the operating temperature of the sohc4's? Does it very with engine size? I have a 350f.

Offline mrbreeze

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2011, 01:29:48 PM »
Without actually measuring temp with an IR gun or pulling a plug and seeing white............I go with 2 things already mentioned...... the ticking sound when its cooling down and the blued head pipes. If you got those 2 goin' on,you're not far from siezing the engine.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2011, 01:44:40 PM »
Ticking when it is cooling down, after a long ride, is normal IMO.
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2011, 01:46:52 PM »
I mean really ticking............(rice krispy style!!!!). You know when its excessive.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2011, 04:58:33 PM »
Head pipes can blue when getting too hot.  It can be caused by a too lean condition (very high combustion temps), or a too rich condition (exhaust gasses pushed out while they are still burning).

It matters if the head pipes are single wall or two.  Single wall chrome pipes are more prone to bluing than double wall.

All the 550's will tick on cool down.  Moreso if there is a cool breeze on them.  Even humidity matters.  They don't have the spacers between the fins like the 750 does to damp the sound.

Visual signs that it is running too hot would be toasted valve guide seals.
Even the IR probes are problematic as the test spot size is about 5/8 inch.  So you can't get in between the fins to see what the actual cylinder temp is.  You just get some average between tip and root of the fins.  It can be an indicator, though.  Some data is usually better than no data, if you understand how to apply it.

You don't want white plugs, light tan is good.
But, that color is usually an average of all the throttle positions and the different engine loads the plugs "saw".
Let's say the main was too rich and the engine under loaded when it left deposits on the plugs.  Then the mid throttle was too lean and fully loaded, burning of the deposits left by the main.  You won't learn much useful by looking at plugs run under these conditions.

The 77-78 CB550K had more restrictive pipes than all prior models.  This helped to retain some of charge (and heat) left by the previous fire cycle, to be "extra burned".  This deprived the chamber of some fresh charge oxygen, and the carbs were set to provide less fuel for the available oxygen.  This made the EPA happy enough to allow importation.   However, change the exhaust restriction to allow more oxygen into the chamber, and the engine will run even leaner, as the carbs have know way of knowing there is more oxygen in the chamber.
The exhaust back pressure effects all throttle/slide positions in the mount of fuel needed for the engine.
I can say with confidence that if you just change the exhaust on a 77 or 78 CB550K to a more open type, your engine will run too lean and too hot.  Another artifact of exhaust restriction is the heat retention.  I think the 77-78 CB550K models were intened to run hotter.  Again, that was current at the time thinking of the EPA as hot engines burn fuel more efficiently and produce less hydrocarbons in the exhaust.  Unfortunately, engine internals weren't redesigned for extra heat tolerance  Valve guides and seals are early casualties.

The original carbs were also set with the expectation that the stock air induction was present.  Whereas, the falling piston creates the vacuum, it is equalized toward outside atmospheric at a rate that the stock induction regulates.  Change the length or the filter membrane material or cross sectional filter area, and that equalization map is all different at the varying operation speeds and throttle settings.
Since jet flow volume is highly dependent on the throat vacuum levels, changing induction also changes the volume of what the carb jets deliver through any given orifice size.  Further, there is no reason to expect the stock induction vacuum is in a linear relationship with the air speed or volume.  There is even less reason to expect a replacement would behave in the same linear pattern as the stock induction, even if you measured a differential between old and new at some fixed point on the operational curve.
However, usually you can say that if a shortened induction path is applied from inlet to carb entrance, the vacuum levels will be lower and the fuel jets will supply less volume of fuel for any given air volume passing through the carb throat, making the engine run leaner.
Further, if the filter membrane has either greater area or in other ways provides a lower pressure differential across it, this ALSO reduces carb throat vacuum, and the resulting volume of fuel drawn from fuel jets. 
The carbs only point of "information gathering" is at the exit point of the fuel jets.  If you change engine needs beyond that point, or effect the information the carbs receive at that point, then the engine will not be supplied the fuel and oxygen in the ratio it needs to run properly.  Almost all the mods I've observed in this forum, will force the carbs to create a lean mixture and a hotter engine than stock.

But, you asked if it was too high, right?

Perhaps the most useful way to know about engine heat is a CHT (Cylinder Head Temperature) gauge.  For the air cooled Lycoming, a CHT of 375F is desirable (at 75% power), but in some high power low airflow conditions the temp regularly gets above 475F.  525F is considered harmful.  It also has a thermostatic oil cooler to save the oil from destruction.

There are contact type CHT probes that use a ring lug fitted to the spark plug in place of, or under, the spark plug's gasket.

There are also thermocouple probes that can make contact between the fins nearest the combustion chamber.

The fin heat isn't going to be a useful measurement.  Also, the there are oil temp senders that can be fitted where the drain plug is.  However, this is a referred heat.  And, is really only useful if you know what the heat is in normal situations.  It can't tell you what the CHT is directly.  Only if the oil is getting hot enough to become damaged.

There are temp labels that you can use to find out what yours is reaching.  Such as:
http://www.palmerwahl.com/temp-plate-temperature-recording-labels.php
The are also crayons and lacquers, that indicate temperatures, also:
http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/subsectionSC.asp?subsection=f&book=Temperature&all=1
You could also shop around for a Fluke 80TK which you can use with a DMM to measure heat.
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/Accessories/Temperature/80TK.htm?PID=55386

Finally, what you'd really like to have while discovering proper jetting is an EGT (exhaust Gas Temperature) gauge.
This will tell if your engine is overtaxing the cooling fins.  A good range is 1200-1600F.
http://www.tricktuners.com/egt_explained.htm

Finally, even in perfectly tuned engines, the cylinder heat will be a function of the power output of the engine and the ambient air that is flowing over the cooling fins of the engine.  But, I think a reasonable goal is to keep the peak below 450F and the average down below 300F.

Hope this helps,
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Offline Tintop

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2011, 06:27:09 PM »
As usual TT a thoughtful post.  I'll have to look into an EGT, sounds interesting.  I used the spark plug type CHT you mentioned on my racing karts.  If I remember right the dual's engines ran at 280+.

From your post it seems you are saying that the air flow through the carb is pulling the fuel out the needle jet.  I was under the impression the fuel is pushed up & out the needle jet by pressure differential.  That being the difference between ambient air (float bowl pressure), and the lower air pressure through the venturi caused by the moving air stream.

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Offline thehammer

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2011, 09:11:12 PM »
i would say that desired operating temperature is about the same as all gas engines for transportation applications. about 210F.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2011, 11:12:18 PM »
I used the spark plug type CHT you mentioned on my racing karts.  If I remember right the dual's engines ran at 280+.
Were those 2C or 4C engines?  And, at what power setting was the temp reading noted?

From your post it seems you are saying that the air flow through the carb is pulling the fuel out the needle jet.  I was under the impression the fuel is pushed up & out the needle jet by pressure differential.  That being the difference between ambient air (float bowl pressure), and the lower air pressure through the venturi caused by the moving air stream.

That is technically correct.  It's a matter of the reference point you choose.  It is the falling piston, and/or the venturi effect (air volume/speed) that causes the lowered pressure at the jet exits.  And then, the differential pressure in the carb throat vs. the atmospheric pressure outside the carb (applied through the vent system) that causes the fuel to flow through the jets.  It IS more accurate to say it was pushed through the jet(s).  But, it is just as useful to think in terms of draw or pull that the engine applies.

It's a large audience, where some are more able and more educated to grasp the specific details better than others.  Some tune out when things get to too technical a level.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2011, 11:18:51 PM »
i would say that desired operating temperature is about the same as all gas engines for transportation applications. about 210F.

That is a good oil temp.  But, for air cooled motors, the cooling fins are a compromise between over cooling at low power settings (and cold outside air conditions) and under cooling for high power settings (and high external air temps).  There is no regulation for these air cooled motors.  Liquid cooled motors are quite a different story.  Both are used for transportation applications.  To expect them all to be at an ideal 210F, I feel is an unrealistic expectation.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Tintop

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2011, 04:12:54 AM »
Thanks for the reply TT, they were 4 stroke Honda G200's on the kart.  Readings were generally taken at WOT on the straight.

So we're on the same page, 'push vs pull'. 
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Offline nokrome

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2011, 07:24:38 AM »
is oil temp a good indicator of cylinder head temp?
  is it possible to have normal oil temp and a high cylinder head temp at the same time ?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2011, 08:52:46 AM »
is oil temp a good indicator of cylinder head temp?

No, not directly.  It may be inferred, only after an established cylinder head temperature has been linked to an oil temperature in known conditions. 

While most of the heat in an engine originates at the combustion chamber, not all of it does.
Friction is another source for heating.  Also, when the piston is on the power stroke, oil in the bearing journals rod and crank are cushioning the stress.  Oil is actually compressible if enough pressure is placed upon it.  However, the process of its compression generates internal heat within the oil.  So, particularly when the engine is making power, oil heats and spikes rapidly in the journals, and then passes that heat on to the engine components.  As the engine components accept heat both from combustion and oil compressive heating, the entire mass heats up.  The cooling fins wick heat out towards the tips and the air flowing over the fins (and all the engine's exterior surface area), transfer heat energy into the air flowing past it.  You will notice that air cooled engines don't have the same size fins over it's entire exterior.  Mostly they are located at the most intense heat sources.

  is it possible to have normal oil temp and a high cylinder head temp at the same time ?

Yes.  But, you don't state a time frame.  Heat energy moves into low temperature masses at a rate determined by the material type.
It's called a coefficient of transfer.  And each material flows heat within itself at a certain rate.  In addition, the rate of heat flow is proportional to the differential between source and destination.  In other words, the greater the differential the faster the heat conduction within a given material.

Heat flow and management has a science in itself.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: How to tell if your bike is running too hot?
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2011, 09:15:39 AM »
Thanks for the reply TT, they were 4 stroke Honda G200's on the kart.  Readings were generally taken at WOT on the straight.

You have to consider cylinder head temps from dissimilar air cooled engines carefully.  Heat shrouds, fin area, placement in the air flow, are all factors.

For example, if I knew my air cooled engine was going to be making 80% power most of the time in hot weather, I would give it considerably more fin area than say a snow mobile engine making an average of 30% power in a cold environment.

Here is a somewhat related case study.  I bought a used 50cc 2 cylinder 2 cycle boxer motor with an airplane.  The engine was first sold specifying a gasoline/oil mix for fuel.  A previous owner had "converted" the engine to run on methanol with glow plugs, but did not change the fin area of the cylinder fins.  The engine ran fine at higher power settings, but would not idle very long at all, (making dead stick landings a routine occurrence).  The problem was that the cooling fins were sized to quickly shed the higher heat of a gasoline fuel, and were wicking away the lower heat of the methanol burn too fast to support the platinum from catalyzing the ignition of the methanol under compression.  If the CR was higher, it would likely have idled fine, and it probably would have idled if some of the cooling fin area had been reduced so it could more easily retain heat at low power setting.  However, in the end, I decided to make it run on gas/oil again as the smaller fuel tank offset the the weight of an added ignition system.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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