Author Topic: HOW Serious Is My Problem?  (Read 1805 times)

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Offline NewOldSchool

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HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« on: April 06, 2011, 07:25:22 PM »
Changed the oil on my '74 CB750 for the second time last night. After buttoning everything back up and priming the system by turning the motor over by kick start several times I started it and the oil pressure warning light turned off after a second. Happy with how things turned out I read back over the recommended oil change procedure and realized I am missing an important part. I do not have the washer that goes in between the new filter and the spring that holds the filter against the block. The article states that this washer is commonly tossed out with the old filter, which is what happened. Should I not ride it until I replace this washer or is this not a big deal?
Not putting miles on your bike is like not having sex with your Girl Friend so she'll be more desirable to her next Boy Friend.

Offline Gordon

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2011, 07:40:23 PM »
Don't take this as a recommendation that you should run your bike this way, but many, many, many (did I say many yet?) sohc4's have been run for years and years and years without this washer. 

If it were me, I would get a washer to replace the missing one, but I wouldn't replace it until the next oil change. 

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2011, 07:45:27 PM »
What he said...

Hush just went through this if you search for his thread about his police bike in New Zealand.


http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86318.25
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 07:55:56 PM by Markcb750 »

Offline NewOldSchool

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2011, 08:06:25 PM »
Thanks guys, yea if worse came to worse I was going to drain the oil from the filter housing and replace the washer but good to know its not a detrimental mistake.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 08:10:47 PM by NewOldSchool »
Not putting miles on your bike is like not having sex with your Girl Friend so she'll be more desirable to her next Boy Friend.

Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2011, 08:33:41 AM »
Only washer I think I have it on the housing bolt itself and it might even be part of the bolt. I have no other washer I know of.
I just replace the 2 orings and cartridge and thats it. Maybe I never had the washer.

Offline MCRider

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2011, 08:37:08 AM »
Only washer I think I have it on the housing bolt itself and it might even be part of the bolt. I have no other washer I know of.
I just replace the 2 orings and cartridge and thats it. Maybe I never had the washer.
There is no washer on the bolt.

You had the washer on the filter between it and the spring, but it was thrown out with a filter change.   :D

Or you put the filter washer on the bolt, it would fit but it may be sloppy.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2011, 08:49:02 AM »
I didnt think the bolt flange was a washer but I never paid attention so I am sure I never had a washer and never had an issue. ;)

Offline Really?

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2011, 08:59:38 AM »
Changed mine last weekend, no washer.
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

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Offline MCRider

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2011, 09:37:23 AM »
Changed mine last weekend, no washer.
Oh! Then you're definitely in for terrible problems, major catastrophe pending no doubt...   ;)
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Johnie

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2011, 09:53:24 AM »
Yes, you will be fine. Very common issue. I have never found one on a bike and keep a supply here.
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Offline Really?

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2011, 09:54:19 AM »
Perfect timing.  I am in the mood for a bike build.

Quote
Quote from: TipperT on Today at 10:59:38 am
Changed mine last weekend, no washer.
Quote
Quote from: MCRider on Today at 10:xx:xx am
Oh! Then you're definitely in for terrible problems, major catastrophe pending no doubt...   
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 09:55:50 AM by TipperT »
I don't have a motorcycle, sold it ('85 Yamaha Venture Royale).  Haven't had a CB750 for over 40 years.

The Wife's Bike - 750K5
The Kid's Bike - 750K3

Offline TwoTired

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2011, 12:21:59 PM »
To the OP...
You should do what most do and sell the bike without the washer in place.  You could also leave out the spring or install the filter parts in wrong order, too.  Then it will be like 99% of the SOHC4s, I collected.

It ain't serious if you don't own it!   ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2011, 02:01:14 PM »
Can you describe where not having the washer caused any issues? The relief spring is one thing but the washer is another.
Not saying it may not be needed but have you actually had some issue or failure with it missing?

Offline MCRider

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2011, 02:34:56 PM »
Can you describe where not having the washer caused any issues? The relief spring is one thing but the washer is another.
Not saying it may not be needed but have you actually had some issue or failure with it missing?
You talkin to me!?   >:(

If so, I'm just kidding,  ;D  hence the winking smiley face.  No there is no problem. Its just the indelicacy of having a thin wire spring pushing against a rubber ORing grommet type thingy. It just begs for an intervening washer, and Honda so provided. But as all, including myself, have said, we see it go missing all the time with no problem.

If you're talking to someone else, well then, nevermind.  :D
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 02:36:44 PM by MCRider »
Ride Safe:
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Fritz

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2011, 02:49:21 PM »
Already fourteen posts on a thread dealing with a missing washer. I really like this forum :D

I think, to be on the safe side, it's good to assume that Honda did not put any part into your bike that is just unnecessary. In case of this particular washer, I guess that it prevents the spring from ripping small rubber pieces out of the oil filter while spinning on the bolt. These pieces would be pushed right into the main oil gallery possibly clogging a passage to parts of your motor that don't survive without good fresh oil.
This seems to be a very rare event, but we've seen earthquakes, tsunamis and three exploding nuclear power stations in a row...
1976 CB550F

Offline NewOldSchool

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2011, 03:08:26 PM »
Thanks all, I totally agree haha I'm surprised my question garnered so many replies! I figured it wasn't a big deal but I can't stand knowing I installed something incorrectly or that its missing a part, however insignificant it is. Call me OCD, but if It came with a washer than its always going to bug me that said washer is missing until I replace it!
Not putting miles on your bike is like not having sex with your Girl Friend so she'll be more desirable to her next Boy Friend.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2011, 03:38:22 PM »
Already fourteen posts on a thread dealing with a missing washer. I really like this forum :D

I think, to be on the safe side, it's good to assume that Honda did not put any part into your bike that is just unnecessary. In case of this particular washer, I guess that it prevents the spring from ripping small rubber pieces out of the oil filter while spinning on the bolt. These pieces would be pushed right into the main oil gallery possibly clogging a passage to parts of your motor that don't survive without good fresh oil.
This seems to be a very rare event, but we've seen earthquakes, tsunamis and three exploding nuclear power stations in a row...

I agree.
It can be argued that we don't even need an oil filter at all let alone one that works perfectly, if we are careful about oil changes and keep clean the things we put in the oil system, and if no parts inside start shaving metal, and so on.

In this particular case, the end of a spring with irregular contour and sharp edges pushes against a soft rubber device that seals between filter and mount bolt.  There is the possibility sharp spring components can "shave" some rubber bits, and that the seal will distort and fail to seal, allowing oil to bypass the filter.  If you think a filter is important, than it stands to reason that you think having it work on ALL the oil, rather than just a portion of it is also important.

Lots of items are on the bike as a precaution or for the purpose of prevention.  To say they are always or never used/required is ill informed.

I have a car with air bags and I've never used them.  I've never had the single throttle return spring break on an SOHC4, so as to require the pull closed cable.  It doesn't mean I will never need these items, or have good benefit from these items included on the machine.

Engineers aren't paid to put parts on or in a machine that have no purpose.  Quite the opposite.  They take all the parts off the prototype that aren't needed in production, (or required by marketing concerns).  For Honda, if it is inside the engine, it has a purpose, whether you are able to divine a reason or not.  Could be you are just not informed enough to understand truly why.  Engineers pay their own salary by taking costs out of a production run.  Saving a dollar on each of a production run of 1 million units, is a million dollars toward profitability.

It does give me some amusement when "customizers" remove and change things because they don't understand them or even care to understand the purpose and function.  But, it is sad when someone unsuspecting buys such an altered example. IMO

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline NewOldSchool

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2011, 04:22:30 PM »
I completely understand
Not putting miles on your bike is like not having sex with your Girl Friend so she'll be more desirable to her next Boy Friend.

Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2011, 06:49:34 PM »
But has anyone actually had any sort of failure caused by missing this washer? Has anyone actually SEEN this potential damage done to the rubber?
I am not even sure where this washer should be. The only spring I have is in the bolt itself.

Offline MCRider

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2011, 07:06:04 PM »
But has anyone actually had any sort of failure caused by missing this washer? Has anyone actually SEEN this potential damage done to the rubber?
I am not even sure where this washer should be. The only spring I have is in the bolt itself.
No not me. Its just "not right" without it. Now as to not having the spring...

That's a touch more serious. I can't post fishies. In the other thread referenced above there is a fish showing it. It goes like this: holding the housing in your hand, drop the spring in AROUND the bolt, followed by the washer, followed by the filter. Such that if you push on the filter and release, the spring pushes it back at you. This pressure keeps the filter cartridge pressed up against the crankcase. Otherwise without it, the cartridge will float along the length of the bolt and not do its job...as well.

Still there would not likely be any failure, but you certainly don't have a filter doing its proper job. And there would be a long term accelerated degrade in lubricated parts

Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Gordon

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2011, 07:57:08 PM »
Without the spring you may as well not have the filter in there either. 

Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2011, 08:51:30 PM »
I wonder if this isnt something pertaining to only the earlier models. My filter fills the housing and can't really move back and forth. Fills as in once I put the bolt in and the filter on the bolt, which is a tight fit, and only the threaded end sticks out. I am starting to think the later bolts may be different. My bolt is hollow and has a spring inside of it.

Offline MCRider

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2011, 09:52:16 PM »
As to the spring and the washer...twas ever thus.

As to the bolt, the internal spring is a pop off valve, they all have them.

The filter cartridge, with the spring and washer in place, the filter gives you a minor fit. You have to push the filter in against the spring to get the thing on the front of the engine. You are missing a part or two.

Look it up on a microfiche, you'll see.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Fritz

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Re: HOW Serious Is My Problem?
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2011, 04:15:52 AM »
I wonder if this isnt something pertaining to only the earlier models. My filter fills the housing and can't really move back and forth. Fills as in once I put the bolt in and the filter on the bolt, which is a tight fit, and only the threaded end sticks out. I am starting to think the later bolts may be different. My bolt is hollow and has a spring inside of it.

So, here's the fiche.
The spring in the oil filter bolt and the relief valve (no. 9, 10, 11) are already installed inside the bolt  when you buy a new one, so just forget about them for now.
The parts in discussion are the washer no. 6 and the spring no. 7.
The oil enters the filter housing on the outside of the filter and is pushed to the inside, which is connected to the main oil gallery.
You could live without 6 but you should not leave 7 out since it pushes the filter against the crank case.
This way it ensures that every drop of oil entering the main oil gallery has to pass the filter first.
If the filter gets clogged, the oil pushes against the relief valve 9 allowing it to enter the engine without having to pass the filter.

IMHO, making sure that you have the washer 6 in place (rounded edge towards the filter) is a state of mind. It's just not right without it. In this case it might no be super important, but if you ever plan to open your engine it is definitely useful to have the will to do things right  ;)

See http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86429 as an example.

Cheers
Carsten
1976 CB550F