Author Topic: Breather smoke cb350f  (Read 3833 times)

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Offline ddanz27

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Breather smoke cb350f
« on: April 07, 2011, 07:13:57 AM »
I was working on syncing my carbs last night on my bike and noticed in the process that the breather tube that runs down to below the bike is sputtering smoke quite regularly. Nothing pouring out but its a constant puff of grey smoke. Is this normal? If not, what can I do? On some newer bikes, doesnt this get recirculated back in to the intake?
1974 Honda CB350F

Offline ddanz27

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Re: Breather smoke cb350f
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2011, 07:51:57 AM »
Nevermind, I think I have figured this out but it brings up another question, If I route my breather tube in to the intake to burn off these fumes, do I need to install a inline pcv valve or am I fine just attaching the hose?  I am thinking I will attach the breather hose to the intake box, not the air filter box but the plenum on the intake. Will this work for what I am wanting to do (which is get rid of these fumes and make the bike less smelly)?
1974 Honda CB350F

Offline RickB

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Re: Breather smoke cb350f
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2011, 07:55:59 AM »
On my 400F that breather tube connects to the chamber filter thing under the airbox and is recirculated back into the system like that. I've just finished a complete rebuild and mine puffs grey smoke to. My mechanic said that's normal.

Offline flybox1

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Re: Breather smoke cb350f
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2011, 08:09:51 AM »
From a conversation with TwoTired....
Hi Bob,
The PDF you linked to is the 400F supplement.  The 400F's filter box has the gas circulator, the 350F does not.
It's not just oil that can get puked out the engine top cover.  This is also where water condensate escapes the engine.  You really don't want either on your air filter element.  And, you are right.  You want some sort of drain for whatever is collected between service intervals.
While I don't like venting to atmosphere, I think that is your best option, unless you can find a 400F filter box/assembly and retrofit it to the 350F.  Note that the slight negative pressure applied to the top cover from the air filter box will also help vaporize any condensate inside the engine much faster.

On other SOHC4s with a breather/circulator, hose pipe 3 is blocked or plugged at the bottom and only uncorked at service intervals, to drain off any collected water/oil emulsion.  The plug also ensures all run time vapors are fed to the engine and burned.

I think they did a better job with the 550 Recirculator, as it bypasses the filter element entirely when feeding the vapors back to engine combustion.  Check out the first 550 supplement to see how that was done.  It's probably not an option for your set up.  But, it does underscore the importance of the foam element #4. 

A thought... I note that drawing show a recirculator component that look a lot like what is on the 77-78 Cb750s.  You may be able to claim one from the many pod proponents, and bolt or attach it to the bottom of your 350 filter box.  I don't have any examples of the 350 box to scrutinize.  But, maybe with a little effort you could make it work, duplicating the function of the stock 400 device.  Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Lloyd

TwoTired.
I had some time to pay attention to the routing of this system.
In this diagram...
http://hondacb350.com/page2/files/CB350-400_09.pdf
it shows the breather tube recirculating blow-by into a chamber below the air filter, including a breather element.
My 350F does not have this element chamber/system below the air filter housing, it just vents dwon by my swingarm, so, I have 2 places i could potentially install a brass nipple to accept the breather hose.
A. In the top/front of the carb airbox directly above the carb boots.
B. An the rear of the filter housing, where the under seat air intake meets the filter housing.

If there is much oil in the blow by, it will collect in location A, and potentially mix with gasoline. bad.
or
If there is much oil in the blow by, it could foul my filter, and possible pool in the bottom of the chamber. bad.

i'm leaning towards chosing the lesser of 2 evils, B, and just clean/replace my filter more often that i do now.

any other location options?  Looking for your guidance here.
thanks for teh education.

Rob - Flybox1.

'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline ddanz27

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Re: Breather smoke cb350f
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2011, 11:31:42 AM »
This is great info guys thank you. Just to clarify though, would this system that I am mocking up in the picture work ok and be harmless to the existing intake. My idea is to route a hose from point A to point B with an inline PCV valve (which it seems like the breather box on the 400f is) and then tap in to the plenum box at the location that I have drawn up in my glorious work of art (HA!). Hope I am not being too needy here. I would really just love for the bike to burn as clean as possible and get rid of some of that old-bike-dirty-burning-oil-smell haha.
1974 Honda CB350F

Offline flybox1

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Re: Breather smoke cb350f
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2011, 11:43:02 AM »
you'd have to regularly clean your tube and plenum of the water/oil emulsion...
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

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Offline jessezm

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Re: Breather smoke cb350f
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2011, 11:58:31 AM »
I would really just love for the bike to burn as clean as possible and get rid of some of that old-bike-dirty-burning-oil-smell haha.

Maybe I'm a little strange but I live for that smell...  It reminds me of the first time I ever got my first bike--a '78 xs650--to start, when I was 17 years old.  It was given to me by a friend's dad, this old greek guy who barely spoke any english and won it in a gambling match.  Didn't run, no first gear, and ugly as sin, but it was mine!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Breather smoke cb350f
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2011, 12:07:40 PM »
For your stated goal, of gas recirculation, it's fine.  Except you don't need or want the PCV valve as depicted (More about this later).  However, the plenum box is a drain for raw fuel pooling in the air chamber.
This happens when insects build nests in the carb overflow drain tubes, and the float valve sticks open, and the gas selector valve is faulty or left on.

So, you have to ask yourself where that rising puddle of gas will go if the tube routes up to the engine or rises to fill the filter box.
Then if you don't notice,  an attempted engine start either puts incompressible liquid in the engine cylinders, or a spark lights off the pooled gas collected.  Or the filter element plugs with gas soaked in it.

The picture posted is of the Cb400 system.  I don't recall if the filter box on the 350 has a separate drain hose at the bottom of it.

To regain the drain function, you might be able to adapt a PCV valve to a T fitting at the low point of the tube interconnecting the plenum chamber to the engine fitting.   The valve would be open without engine/plenum vacuum (allowing pooled gasoline to escape).  It would then close when the engine is running, and provide recirculation.  You would have to select a valve that would close at the vacuum levels that exist in the air plenum which is pretty low and variable (with both engine speed and pressure drop across the air filter membrane).  (I have never measured what the typical air plenum pressures are however, or which PCV valve designs or parameters would provide proper function for this alteration.)

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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