Author Topic: Overbore for a 74 550K question  (Read 2034 times)

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Offline clarkjh

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Overbore for a 74 550K question
« on: April 13, 2006, 05:01:07 PM »
I need to buy new pistons for my 74 550K and was wondering witch of the following two kits would be the best/cost effective to buy
E-bay #4622989591 - Pistons (59mm), rings, Pins and Clips, and gasket. US $119.95
E-bay #4622989564 - Cylinder Sleeves, Pistons (60mm), rings, Pins and Clips, and gasket. US $159.95

I don't really know witch one I should pick up.  Could use some help deciding, even if it is from the "peanut gallery" ;)

James
SOHC/4 #3328
SOHC/4 Gallery: http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/clarkjh/
1974 CB550, 40000 Miles
1980 GL1100, 102789 KM - Back on the road after a complete engine rebuild. 
*** Why, oh why, is it always head gaskets with me?***

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2006, 06:45:56 PM »
How are your existing sleeves?

Putting new sleeves in is more expensive than simply boring your existing cylinders.  I thought I remember the stock ones can be bored to 63mm for 750 pistons.  But, I haven't checked that recently.

If you are looking for ultimate power, bigger pistons are it.  If you just want to make the engine reliable again, go with the 59s unless there is cylinder wall scoring, that requires boring to a larger size than what the 59mm pistons need to fit properly.

The old addage is if you want the ability to rebuild many times, do it in minimum increments of overbore.
If power is the goal, do it all at once.  But, then you'll need those sleeves replaced maybe next rebuild.

The new sleeves still have to be bored after fitting to the block.

I'd go inexpensive for a street bike.  A racer goes all out.  But, you'll still eat dust from the modern sport bikes.

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline clarkjh

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2006, 04:36:44 AM »
I just want a reliable ride, I broke a ring in #4 and cratched the cylinder but the machine shop said it should come out ever for stanard bore, but I can't seem to find stanard pistons and rings.  So, I'm leaning toward the 59, all new seals and gaskets, might have to go with new value guides and seals too, but not sure yet.

I was going to hold off and do this slowly buy picking up a beater CB750C but when I looked at it, it was a deer strike :o, one bent fork, blown head gasket, ect..  So now If I want to ride this summer I've got to get the lead out and get the 550 back together.

James
SOHC/4 #3328
SOHC/4 Gallery: http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/clarkjh/
1974 CB550, 40000 Miles
1980 GL1100, 102789 KM - Back on the road after a complete engine rebuild. 
*** Why, oh why, is it always head gaskets with me?***

supersport_CB400F

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2006, 08:58:56 AM »
I got an almost new set of standard barrels and pistons 6Kmiles for $18.50 from ebay you cant get a cheaper fix than that, postage cost $85 but it’s still a cheap replacement compared with new stuff.  ;D

Offline clarkjh

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2006, 09:16:26 AM »
biffta, you lucky sob, I've been looking all winter for a set, what were you using to search?  All I ever found was these over size for the 500.

James
SOHC/4 #3328
SOHC/4 Gallery: http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/clarkjh/
1974 CB550, 40000 Miles
1980 GL1100, 102789 KM - Back on the road after a complete engine rebuild. 
*** Why, oh why, is it always head gaskets with me?***

Offline crazypj

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2006, 09:20:30 AM »
The stock liners will take 750 std pistons without any trouble. (61mm, 591.58cc) Its a lot more work to fit liners correctly (if you want things to last) I bore block and hone to a 0.003" interference with a 40~ 60micron surface finish then shrink liners in (never liked the idea of pressing cold), which I believe is more accurate than the original set up. I also like to use a slightly wider than stock piston to cyl clearance as more heat is going to be developed (about 0.0018" to 0.002" road, up to 0.003" for racing) Cylinders are 0.0002" max out of round/ parrallel when finished. Its a small engine, needs small tolerances
Hope this is some use to you.
PJ
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2006, 12:34:31 PM »
I just want a reliable ride, I broke a ring in #4 and cratched the cylinder but the machine shop said it should come out ever for stanard bore, but I can't seem to find stanard pistons and rings.  So, I'm leaning toward the 59, all new seals and gaskets, might have to go with new value guides and seals too, but not sure yet.

If you have scratched the cylinder wall, more material will have to be removed to make it smooth again.  This is akin to high mileage wear.  Although, you may still meet service limits, the engine won't last as long because the tolerances are now much closer to wear limits due to the honing.
Can your machinist tell you what std piston to cyl wall tolerance will be?


I'd probably go with the 59s for maxium longevity.  Bore your existing sleeves for these to fit properly.  PJs clearances are just fine.  Were I you, I would have the new pistons on hand to measure before having your cylinders bored and honed.  With luck, they will all be exactly the same diameter.  Your machinist can then bore and hone to you specifications.  Don't forget to end gap the rings.
Even if you don't replace the valve guides, do replace the guide seals.  It will cost you another gasket set to replace them later.  Unless, of course, blue exhaust smoke somehow appeals to you.

Reassemble, break in, and ride!

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline clarkjh

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2006, 01:02:35 PM »
Unless, of course, blue exhaust smoke somehow appeals to you.



Blue smoke is what started this whole mess to begin with :'(.

James
SOHC/4 #3328
SOHC/4 Gallery: http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/clarkjh/
1974 CB550, 40000 Miles
1980 GL1100, 102789 KM - Back on the road after a complete engine rebuild. 
*** Why, oh why, is it always head gaskets with me?***

Offline Big Jay

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2006, 06:30:18 PM »
I am surprised those old kits are still out there. There are no replacement piston rings or head gaskets  available for them. If the seller says he has replacement rings, get a spare set and extra head gasket.

As for the post about putting 750 pistons in a 550, It can be done, but the compression height is wrong, and the tops of the 750 pistons must be machined including putting valve pockets in for the 550.

We used to do hundreds of those back in the 70s.  Good thing about it is that replacement rings are available.

Jay

Offline MRieck

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2006, 07:49:57 PM »
I am surprised those old kits are still out there. There are no replacement piston rings or head gaskets  available for them. If the seller says he has replacement rings, get a spare set and extra head gasket.

As for the post about putting 750 pistons in a 550, It can be done, but the compression height is wrong, and the tops of the 750 pistons must be machined including putting valve pockets in for the 550.

We used to do hundreds of those back in the 70s.  Good thing about it is that replacement rings are available.

Jay
I also find it amazing the old, "new", stuff that is around. Keep in mind....old #$%* is old #$%*. ;)
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline bwaller

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2006, 08:14:29 PM »
Jay is right, I don't know where all those 550 Big Bore kits are coming from either, and regarding rings, standard 750 compression rings will fit but the oil ring will not. The 61mm kit piston oil ring land is 0.011" narrower. I bought a used engine with nearly new 61mm BB pistons, and am considering reusing these. I had the oil ring land widened to be able to use the 750 ring. Cometic offers a head gasket that will work,
part # H0516SP2059F

I was always concerned however with the 550 sleeve thickness after reboring to 61mm. I know compared to modern sleeves there should still be lots of material, has anyone experience with engine longevity and these bigger bores?

One seller of these kits claims 10.8 - 1 compression. These are flat top pistons like stockers, would this be accurate?
 
I just read Mikes post and I did read somewhere that these pistons were manufactured by ART, but have a flat bottom skirt..... they are a little odd, but are they #$%*??        I may try em and let you know!!

Offline Big Jay

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2006, 09:27:44 PM »
They used to be made by Henry Abe industries in Japan. I don't thing they were Arts. The pistons said HANDS up inside. We just did one of these kits for a customer last year. They also had one piece oil rings I believe.

Can some one post the e-bay link for these kits? Is the seller in the USA?

Thanks

Jay

Offline clarkjh

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2006, 04:37:06 AM »
Just do a search for E-bay #4622989564, but guys, don't buy them all up on me, I haven't had a chance to order one yet.  I plan on ordering the 59mm kit next week.

James
SOHC/4 #3328
SOHC/4 Gallery: http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/clarkjh/
1974 CB550, 40000 Miles
1980 GL1100, 102789 KM - Back on the road after a complete engine rebuild. 
*** Why, oh why, is it always head gaskets with me?***

Offline bwaller

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2006, 05:28:10 AM »
Hey Big Jay,  they are marked Hainsdt inside. Can you tell us if there were ever any problems with these. I feel better using 750 rings, so plan to go ahead. The 500/550 is a great little engine, just thought I'd try one with a little more oomph. I'll keep the original pistons and cylinder on ice just in case!

Offline crazypj

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2006, 06:57:16 AM »
 I think I posted this info in the 'crazy engine builders' post.(http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=8365.0)  Had over 70,000miles on 591 kit, machined 750 pistons in 550 (including how to machine) Only downside was the RPM's I used 'occaisionally' which led to high ring wear. ( 13,500rpm, less han 10,000 miles to set of rings, approx 83mph in second gear) that was pretty high rpm in 1978 ( still is today ;D)  girlfriend at the time had a sticker made for me 'Honda four revver'
PJ
« Last Edit: April 15, 2006, 07:31:42 AM by crazypj »
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Offline clarkjh

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2006, 07:06:34 AM »
When I put the old girl back together I want to not have to open her up for a good long time.  I would like to get at least another 30,000 on the clock before anything major needs to be done again.  I figure that should be about 5 years ;D

James
SOHC/4 #3328
SOHC/4 Gallery: http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/clarkjh/
1974 CB550, 40000 Miles
1980 GL1100, 102789 KM - Back on the road after a complete engine rebuild. 
*** Why, oh why, is it always head gaskets with me?***

Offline crazypj

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Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2006, 07:18:19 AM »
When I put the old girl back together I want to not have to open her up for a good long time.  I would like to get at least another 30,000 on the clock before anything major needs to be done again.  I figure that should be about 5 years ;D

James


Stick to the stock redline or a little lower, less stress on the rods and may last a bit longer.
PJ
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'

Offline clarkjh

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Update - Re: Overbore for a 74 550K question
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2006, 01:26:02 PM »
Just ordered the kit with the 59mm pistons, will let you know on the quality when they arrive.

James
SOHC/4 #3328
SOHC/4 Gallery: http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/clarkjh/
1974 CB550, 40000 Miles
1980 GL1100, 102789 KM - Back on the road after a complete engine rebuild. 
*** Why, oh why, is it always head gaskets with me?***