Author Topic: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies  (Read 2268 times)

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Offline Greggo

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A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« on: May 07, 2011, 09:43:42 AM »
FROM THE SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE -- SFGate.com


(05-07) 04:00 PDT Washington -- Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California and Oklahoma Republican Sen. Tom Coburn have joined forces with Tea Party activists in an attempt to kill $6 billion a year in ethanol subsidies, taking on the corn lobby and anti-tax crusader Grover Norquist.

Ethanol, an alcohol fuel made from corn and used as a gasoline additive, for decades has received lavish federal subsidies in the form of tax breaks, import tariffs and regulations that set a goal of gasoline to contain up to 10 percent ethanol. The Environmental Protection Agency this year approved blends of up to 15 percent ethanol for cars made in 2001 and later.

The fuel has been alternately touted by corn growers as a salvation from U.S. dependence on foreign oil and blamed by environmentalists for contributing to giant algae blooms in the Gulf of Mexico and by anti-poverty groups for raising food prices.

With the $14.3 trillion national debt ceiling approaching, ethanol has become a flash point in GOP maneuvering over taxes.

The government pays refiners 45 cents a gallon through a tax credit to refine ethanol. An additional 54-cents-per-gallon tariff blocks imports of less-expensive and more energy-efficient sugar-based ethanol from Brazil.

Feinstein and Coburn are sponsoring an amendment to eliminate the subsidies and promise to attach it to a bill next week that would reduce oil and gas subsidies. Feinstein said the subsidies are no longer affordable and that the tariffs actually increase gasoline prices because it's cheaper to import oil than to import ethanol.

"Ethanol is the only industry that benefits from a triple crown of government intervention," Feinstein said. "Its use is mandated by law, it is protected by tariffs, and companies are paid by the federal government to use it."

Ugly public spat
The ethanol fight has drawn Coburn into an ugly public spat with Norquist, the president of Americans for Tax Reform and a heavyweight in GOP circles. Norquist accused Coburn of breaking his pledge not to raise taxes, on the grounds that ending the ethanol tax break would constitute a tax increase for corn growers.

The stakes are much higher than just ethanol. With the federal budget a few months short of hitting the debt limit, depending on how the Treasury manages debt payments, Norquist is pressuring Republicans to refuse any agreement with the Obama administration to raise anything that looks like a tax.

The ethanol tax credit is a classic "tax expenditure," or spending program disguised as a tax cut. Such tax breaks together cost more than $1 trillion a year. There is wide agreement among budget analysts, including the president's bipartisan deficit commission, that reducing such tax breaks could reduce the deficit and increase the fairness of the tax code.

If Republicans rule such tax breaks out of bounds, there is scant chance of any pact between the parties on the budget.

Coburn fought back hard against Norquist, saying the ethanol subsidy is "nothing more than corporate welfare not-so-cleverly disguised as a tax break that, in the real world, has the impact of a tax increase" because other taxes have to be raised to pay for it.

Other taxes expected
Ryan Ellis, the tax policy director for Norquist's group, volleyed back, issuing a paper saying that Americans for Tax Reform "opposes the ethanol tax credit and always has" but insisted that other taxes would have to be reduced by the same amount as the ethanol tax break to prevent a net tax increase if it is eliminated.

In an interview, Ellis appeared to back down, saying that by eliminating the ethanol tariff, the Feinstein and Coburn amendment might not raises taxes as much, because tariffs are taxes.

Feinstein and Coburn appear to be winning the debate among conservatives, drawing support from the Wall Street Journal editorial page, the Economist magazine, conservative commentator Chuck Colson, and RedState.org and FreedomWorks.

On Tuesday, the Tea Party Patriots group, which opposes taxes and excessive government spending, said on its Facebook page: "When the Left and the Right agree ... amazing things can happen."

One commenter on the group's website posted, "Why should we as taxpayers pay to make our road fuel more corrosive and less energy dense. And making fuel out of food is retarded even for politicians!!!"

Farm state Sens. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, and Kent Conrad, D-N.D., began a rearguard action, introducing a bill that would extend the ethanol tax credit through 2016, but at declining levels.

Bloc battles subsidies
A broad coalition of 90 organizations, from Greenpeace to the Grocery Manufacturers Association, is opposing the ethanol subsidies. Ethanol uses 40 percent of the U.S. corn crop, putting upward pressure on corn prices.

Because fossil fuels are used both to grow corn and to refine it into ethanol, and because ethanol does not yield as much energy per gallon as gasoline, various studies have shown that ethanol does not save much energy overall and may increase greenhouse gas emissions.



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/05/06/MN5N1JCFTV.DTL#ixzz1LgZrmpyI

Offline ntm1974

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2011, 09:51:31 AM »

Lets see:  It takes about a gallon of gas to make a gallon of ethanol and as an added bonus it adds to the national dept while it ruins our engines.  On top of that: it also raises corn prices which raises all of our food prices.

I think history will judge a country who turns its primary food product into gas very harshly.

Offline Blueridgerunner

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2011, 05:25:13 AM »

Lets see:  It takes about a gallon of gas to make a gallon of ethanol and as an added bonus it adds to the national dept while it ruins our engines.  On top of that: it also raises corn prices which raises all of our food prices.

I think history will judge a country who turns its primary food product into gas very harshly.
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2011, 05:43:00 AM »
+ another one, hydrogen is the way to go, and if we end up using so much water that we drain the seas I can ride my 750 over to the US! ;D
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2011, 06:46:23 AM »
Sadly, hydrogen has many problems associated with its use as an alternative to fossil fuel.  :-\
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2011, 03:03:04 PM »
Sadly, hydrogen has many problems associated with its use as an alternative to fossil fuel.  :-\

I think the biggest problem is that its only in the publics interest and not the motoring industry, who would have to retool at large expense to build engines capable of running on Hydrogen. What "other" problems do you speak of Bob.?  Hydrogen plants are producing electricity in some parts of Europe and it is cheap and efficient.... ;)

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Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2011, 07:10:10 AM »
It is mainly an infrastructure thing. You would have to either add or replace some of the current pumps. Obviously gas engines are not going anywhere for some time, I would say minimum of 100 years if even then.
Hydrogen storage is also more costly on start up from.
The other thing I worry about are the people that shouldn't even be driving anyways. There better be some sort of fool proof seal for the transfer from pump to fuel cell! ;D

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2011, 07:18:16 AM »
The graph below tells the story

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2011, 07:32:25 AM »
Sadly, hydrogen has many problems associated with its use as an alternative to fossil fuel.  :-\

I think the biggest problem is that its only in the publics interest and not the motoring industry, who would have to retool at large expense to build engines capable of running on Hydrogen. What "other" problems do you speak of Bob.?  Hydrogen plants are producing electricity in some parts of Europe and it is cheap and efficient.... ;)

There are several references out there, this is just one. No simple practical solutions so far, if there were, I guess we would never have a need for these discussions.  :-\

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/next-generation/4199381
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Offline ntm1974

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2011, 08:33:54 AM »



I thought this was interesting and uses hydrogen from water.  It is already retrofitted to his car.

Water cars & welding

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2011, 08:47:17 AM »
I would like to see any follow up on the HHO thing, My scientific training informs me it will take more energy to create the gas by splitting the hydrogen bond to oxygen then you can liberate by recombining them.

But hell they sell us ethanol, why not HHO?


Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2011, 08:55:10 AM »
But hell they sell us ethanol, why not HHO?

 ;)
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Offline ntm1974

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2011, 12:04:50 PM »
I would like to see any follow up on the HHO thing, My scientific training informs me it will take more energy to create the gas by splitting the hydrogen bond to oxygen then you can liberate by recombining them.

But hell they sell us ethanol, why not HHO?

I think the only people sold on ethanol are the people who grow corn and the corn lobby that gets paid to promote it.  It makes sense in Brazil where I believe they get an 8 to 1 ratio of gas expended to produce the ethanol.  For us to turn one of our primary food crops into fuel borderlines on insanity.


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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2011, 03:06:37 PM »
Quote
I would like to see any follow up on the HHO thing, My scientific training informs me it will take more energy to create the gas by splitting the hydrogen bond to oxygen then you can liberate by recombining them.

I don't know the specifics but in recent times there have been some very simple methods devised for turning H2O into HHO. The power plants i mentioned earlier would be a total waste of time if it took more energy to extract the HHO than it produced..This is our future, we just need to make enough noise so the current car makers HAVE to make change, rather than resist for the sake of their bottom line. We are all collectively more important than the corporations, we just have to make that extremely clear.... ;)

Bob, that reference was from 2006, there have been some changes since then, they quote 300 miles from 17 pounds of HHO whilst the guy in the video uses 4 ounces of water for 100 miles....Big difference..... ;)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 03:20:26 PM by Retro Rocket »
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2011, 04:49:40 PM »
Thanks, I'll try to do some more current research on the topic.
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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2011, 04:52:16 PM »
I'll try and find some info on the power plant in Europe using Hydrogen, i think they get the electricity for the conversion from a small hydro electricity plant, i saw the story on a late night documentary...
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2011, 04:59:29 PM »
I would like to see any follow up on the HHO thing, My scientific training informs me it will take more energy to create the gas by splitting the hydrogen bond to oxygen then you can liberate by recombining them.

But hell they sell us ethanol, why not HHO?

I think the only people sold on ethanol are the people who grow corn and the corn lobby that gets paid to promote it.  It makes sense in Brazil where I believe they get an 8 to 1 ratio of gas expended to produce the ethanol.  For us to turn one of our primary food crops into fuel borderlines on insanity.
In South America they ferment sugar cane which has a much higher ethanol yield than corn. Cuba could be our new energy source. ;D
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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2011, 05:10:22 PM »
Quote
In South America they ferment sugar cane which has a much higher ethanol yield than corn

They have been doing that in Australia for years now, all our ethanol comes from sugar cane.

This is interesting, its about the Kola bore hole in Russia, the deepest bore hole on the planet.

Quote
The Kola borehole penetrated about a third of the way through the Baltic continental crust, estimated to be around 35 kilometres (22 mi) deep, reaching rocks of Archaean age (greater than 2.5 billion years old) at the bottom.[7] The project has been a site of extensive geophysical studies. The stated areas of study were the deep structure of the Baltic Shield; seismic discontinuities and the thermal regime in the Earth's crust; the physical and chemical composition of the deep crust and the transition from upper to lower crust; lithospheric geophysics; and to create and develop technologies for deep geophysical study.

To scientists, one of the more fascinating findings to emerge from this well is that the change in seismic velocities was not found at a boundary marking Harold Jeffreys's hypothetical transition from granite to basalt; it was at the bottom of a layer of metamorphic rock that extended from about 5 to 10 kilometers beneath the surface. The rock there had been thoroughly fractured and was saturated with water, which was surprising. This water, unlike surface water, must have come from deep-crust minerals and had been unable to reach the surface because of a layer of impermeable rock.[8]

Another unexpected discovery was the large quantity of hydrogen gas, with the mud flowing out of the hole described as "boiling" with hydrogen.

Hydrogen without the "splitting" process......
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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2011, 05:33:04 PM »
I would like to see any follow up on the HHO thing, My scientific training informs me it will take more energy to create the gas by splitting the hydrogen bond to oxygen then you can liberate by recombining them.

But hell they sell us ethanol, why not HHO?

I think the only people sold on ethanol are the people who grow corn and the corn lobby that gets paid to promote it.  It makes sense in Brazil where I believe they get an 8 to 1 ratio of gas expended to produce the ethanol.  For us to turn one of our primary food crops into fuel borderlines on insanity.
In South America they ferment sugar cane which has a much higher ethanol yield than corn. Cuba could be our new energy source. ;D

I do not know why sugar can was rejected here, other then the influence of ADM that is...

Offline BobbyR

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2011, 06:20:56 PM »
I would like to see any follow up on the HHO thing, My scientific training informs me it will take more energy to create the gas by splitting the hydrogen bond to oxygen then you can liberate by recombining them.

But hell they sell us ethanol, why not HHO?

I think the only people sold on ethanol are the people who grow corn and the corn lobby that gets paid to promote it.  It makes sense in Brazil where I believe they get an 8 to 1 ratio of gas expended to produce the ethanol.  For us to turn one of our primary food crops into fuel borderlines on insanity.
In South America they ferment sugar cane which has a much higher ethanol yield than corn. Cuba could be our new energy source. ;D

I do not know why sugar can was rejected here, other then the influence of ADM that is...
We don't have enough of it in Country, and the Corn lobby may have gotten there first. Also, during the gas crisis in the 1970s the first Gasohol hit the market. It is not new.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2011, 06:26:42 PM »
All seems stupid to me, growing food for fuel is just the most stupid thing i have ever heard of, sugar cane on th other hand is a grass and will just about grow anywhere.....I still HATE ethanol.......Stupid bloody politicians........Is there some way we can make fuel out of them.?
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Offline Grnrngr

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2011, 11:51:38 PM »
Well, I sure don't want it in my gas tank, but Everclear scewdrivers are....exceptional.. 8)
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2011, 01:28:43 AM »
I thought the PM article was a tad negative, but considering their long relationship with the auto and oil industries, not surprising. It seems that their main gripe is the cost of the infrastructure to produce/deliver HHO, but I'm sure that if we had to create the oil industry from scratch, the cost would be truly phenomenal.

Can you imagine the cost of oil exploration, building hundreds of oil rigs, building refineries, creating the entire distribution network, building thousands of gas stations, etc etc? While HHO is only in it's infancy it probably won't be cost affective in the short term, but just like gasoline, the technology will continue to improve to the point where it's viable, and eventually we won't be held to ransom by greedy oil companies and those armpits in the Middle East who use our gas money to finance terrorism, and the hippies will be happy that our world will be a cleaner place for it. Cheers, Terry. ;D 
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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2011, 02:06:18 AM »
There are huge sugar can farms in Louisiana. Sugar beets grow like weeds and produce sugar almost as efficiently as Cane.  Both of them could be planted and harvested in just a few months.  But ADM does not have a monopoly on sugar.

In South Carolina there is a pilot program using Saw Grass to produce ethanol. But ADM does not have any interest in paying for congress election advertizing in exchange for a Saw Grass subsidy.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: A Bipartisan Crusade Against Ethanol Subsidies
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2011, 02:11:54 AM »
Politics, money and bull#$%*, nothing to do with "doing the right thing", a bunch of self interested morons more interested in short term gain. Did i mention that i can't stand politicians...... :o
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