Author Topic: OEM exhaust rebuild?  (Read 5041 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Duanob

  • Bold Timer
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,009
  • Gotcha!
OEM exhaust rebuild?
« on: May 11, 2011, 08:50:19 AM »
Anybody ever rebuild or repack the OEM 4 into 4 exhaust? Mine has pretty much burned out and I would like to quiet it down a touch. Buying a new set is completely out of the question at $900+.

If it can be done I would like to jknow how to do it and what I need. Thanks.
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
Another 1976 CB550K Cafe?

  __o
_- \_<,
(*) /' (*)

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2011, 09:08:28 AM »
Not much rebuildable on any bike (telling us the bike model would help)..
do you have baffles in place?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 12:54:35 PM by Markcb750 »

Offline ekpent

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,512
  • To many bikes-but lookin' for more
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2011, 11:09:29 AM »
On a 750 the HM300 has a removable baffle that can be re wrapped with fiberglass.The hm341 has just a diffuser they call it at the end of the pipe,not really a baffle and has inner chambers to quiet which are not rebuildable. There is a reason we all think the HM300 is the better pipes.

Offline Duanob

  • Bold Timer
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,009
  • Gotcha!
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2011, 12:05:26 PM »
On a 750 the HM300 has a removable baffle that can be re wrapped with fiberglass.The hm341 has just a diffuser they call it at the end of the pipe,not really a baffle and has inner chambers to quiet which are not rebuildable. There is a reason we all think the HM300 is the better pipes.

!976 CB550K

I thought I had HM300 pipes but I'll check to make sure. Is there a 'How To' anywhere on replacing or repacking these baffles? It looks to me like the ends are secured inside by some sort of caulking? Also noticed the PO drilled holes in the ends for what I don't know. Probably thought it would breathe better or sound better or something. Sounds kinda like crap at the moment but people sure hear me coming. 
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
Another 1976 CB550K Cafe?

  __o
_- \_<,
(*) /' (*)

Offline ekpent

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,512
  • To many bikes-but lookin' for more
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2011, 12:35:09 PM »
Your 550 would have different stock numbers than the 750's I mentioned. Never had a 500-550 so not much help on those.Two Tired are you out there------

Offline Gordon

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,114
  • 750K1, 550K2
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2011, 02:43:07 PM »
The 550 4-4 pipes are not made to be rebuildable.  Like with anything, I'm sure it can be done, but probably not very easily.  One thing to keep in mind, if the baffles have rusted out, chances are the pipes themselves are about to rust through as well. 

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2011, 03:11:43 PM »
The product code was 323 for the CB500, which is what the pipes were originally designed to fit.  There continued using the same pipe on the Cb550K through 1976 (US models).

The muffler shells are stamped/formed in a big industrial press. They are a welded together as a unit and then chromed.  Not considered rebuild-able. 
You'll notice they have a top and bottom "seam".  I've never cut one of these apart to see what's inside.  They usually have holes through the outside if the internal baffles are still intact.

It wouldn't surprise me if whoever drilled holes in the exhaust for more noise didn't try to eliminate the baffles inside the pipe too.  The infantile seem to like making big noises.  If you can't make it go fast, then make it louder.  But, I digress.

I've got an extra #1 muffler with a screwed up head pipe.  And, I've been toying with cutting the muffler apart just cause I like to know what's inside.  The issue is, of course, "spare time".

Cheers,

P.S. I drove for years with a 4 into 2 system 'cause I thought the stock pipes were too expensive.  The 4/2 worked ok.  I eventually sprung for the stockers despite the expense.  They aren't that expensive really, if you amortize the cost over the life of the machine, and take into account that you purchased the bike cheaper because of the worn out exhaust.  Sure makes tuning the bike a lot easier, too.  To me, that's worth something.  Besides that, some willingly pay more for "style points".  With all that factored, I think they are worth it. IMO
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 06:39:15 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Duanob

  • Bold Timer
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,009
  • Gotcha!
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2011, 03:30:44 PM »
Thanks TT

I've thought of going 4 into 2, with Triumph style bullet mufflers. Did you have to rejet?

$800+ sounds like a lot to me. But then again how much will they be in 20 years? I'm keeping my eyes open for a god used set but we'll see. Lots of swap meets coming up.
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
Another 1976 CB550K Cafe?

  __o
_- \_<,
(*) /' (*)

Offline Lavis500

  • Why don't you go ask a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • "Don't plan vast projects with half-vast ideas"
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2011, 03:47:03 PM »
I have a 500 muffler that I pulled had a long gash that was rusted through.  The PO covered it in 1/8 inch metal mesh and jbwelded over it.  When I started the bike the first time, it all started to blow off.  After I pulled it off the bike I peeled it back to see what was inside.  I toyed with the idea of rebuilding it because it would be such a pain.

This is a very crude drawing of how the internals of the HM323 exhaust looks:
<a href="http://s230.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/Lavis325CL/?action=view&amp;current=gutmuffler.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee291/Lavis325CL/gutmuffler.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket">[/url]

The blue pipe is like a continuation of the header pipe.  The dots represent perforation in the pipe, about 1/4 inch wide holes.  The red lines are baffles.  There two separate plates, each with 2 pipes going through it.  These plates would be one of the biggest hurdles in rebuilding the mufflers as they are welded to the outer shell of the muffler.  The pipes in the plates are configured 90 degrees from each other.  IE while one plate is configured like | the other is arranged like --

If I get a chance I'll take some pics tonight.  In the meantime, I'll see if I can't find the old pics I took a year ago.
"Whatever it is, I swear I didn't do it!"

'73 CB500 - Sally

Offline clarkjh

  • Expert? If only.
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,385
  • Surely and Samson are now Co-habitating
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2011, 05:21:56 PM »
If you can find the $$ for the new, go for it.  I rebuilt a 4 into 1 years ago on a 75 CB550 and just used a steel roller with one end cut off and the sides poked full of holes then wielded into the muffler cone and then adjusted the back pressure with holes in the end cap. (Didn't have a clue about jetting back then)  Wisper quite when not under load, but would drown out a Harley when hauling butt.
I spent the $$ to buy a SS replacement for my Goldwing and would save my money to get a 4 into 4 for the 550 if Motad made them.

I'll leave it at that as I'm rambling.
James
SOHC/4 #3328
SOHC/4 Gallery: http://www.sohc4.us/gallery/v/members/personal/clarkjh/
1974 CB550, 40000 Miles
1980 GL1100, 102789 KM - Back on the road after a complete engine rebuild. 
*** Why, oh why, is it always head gaskets with me?***

Offline Lavis500

  • Why don't you go ask a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • "Don't plan vast projects with half-vast ideas"
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2011, 06:21:41 PM »
OK, so I made a video instead of pictures.  I think it all turned out OK.

Please keep in mind that I am by no means a professional videographer.

Honda CB500 Four HM323 Exhaust Dissection
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 06:36:20 PM by Lavis500 »
"Whatever it is, I swear I didn't do it!"

'73 CB500 - Sally

Markcb750

  • Guest
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2011, 06:44:45 PM »
it's like Alien Autopsy...

wow

I just couldn't watch it all.

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2011, 06:49:08 PM »
I've thought of going 4 into 2, with Triumph style bullet mufflers. Did you have to rejet?
No.  But, I think I raised the needle one clip position.  Not sure I had to.  But, it ran pretty darned well.  The problem is that no two vendor's 4 into 2 have any specification make the back pressure equal to another vendor's 4 into 2, or to the stock 4 to4 system.  So each must be dealt with on a case by case basis, if it ain't the stock 4 to 4.

$800+ sounds like a lot to me. But then again how much will they be in 20 years?
You think they will be available in 20 years?  I guess that's one more reason to buy wile it' is still possible.  FYI, you can't buy a 77-78 4 to 4 system new, anywhere and any price.  And those are most definitely different than the earlier 4 to 4s.

Another comparison:  How much is the stock exhaust system on a new current model bike?

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,311
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2011, 07:07:08 PM »
Great video Lavis!!!
Duanob, if your pipes aren't rusted out, perhaps you could weld plugs into the holes drilled into your end-caps, restoring them to stock sound levels?
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline Duanob

  • Bold Timer
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,009
  • Gotcha!
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2011, 10:12:11 AM »
Great video Lavis!!!
Duanob, if your pipes aren't rusted out, perhaps you could weld plugs into the holes drilled into your end-caps, restoring them to stock sound levels?

Great vid Tim. I feel like I'm in shop class again. very informative and dashed all hopes of rebuilding these things! LOL!

Thanks for all the input guys. Awesome stuff.

Scottly you read my mind. I haven't looked deep into the ends but I was thinking of finding some large fender washers and make a bandaid to cover the drilled out end plugs. My neighbor has a welder and he's always looking for projects. If I could just cover the drilled out holes I could get a sense of how good or bad the original baffling is.

Depending on how long these holes have been there it may be in good, not very used condition by bipassing the baffles. The bike had a make-over probably back in the late 70's early 80's so you never know. Got rid of that OEM boring seat, added a sissy bar and mild ape hangers, blah blah. Probably wanted that HD sound as well.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 10:16:55 AM by Duanob »
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
Another 1976 CB550K Cafe?

  __o
_- \_<,
(*) /' (*)

Offline Gordon

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,114
  • 750K1, 550K2
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2011, 11:31:26 AM »

Depending on how long these holes have been there it may be in good, not very used condition by bipassing the baffles. The bike had a make-over probably back in the late 70's early 80's so you never know. Got rid of that OEM boring seat, added a sissy bar and mild ape hangers, blah blah. Probably wanted that HD sound as well.

I suppose it's possible, but the baffles don't get burned out from use, they rust out due to moisture inside the pipes, and that moisture is going to be there regardless of whether there are holes drilled in the end of the muffler or not. 

Offline Lavis500

  • Why don't you go ask a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • "Don't plan vast projects with half-vast ideas"
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2011, 12:24:48 PM »
You know, on second thought it may not be too hard to rebuild these mufflers in a way.  I looked at the baffles again and the plates are actually welded in one spot along the edge for about 2 inches.  That's why they pulled out of the shell when I started peeling back that edge - it was the only place they were attached!

There are some aspects of the world of tools I'm not too familiar with.  What is available as far as long reach drill bits, grinders, and dremel style cutting tools?  What if we were to remove the end plate with the final tube and use that as an access point to remove the other baffle plates?  Then we could make another end plate - perhaps using a fender washer and a long piece of pipe.  If we were to cut each of the baffle plates in half, they could be pulled out of the end easily.  One side would be really easy to take out since it wouldn't be attached by anything other than pressure.  The welded side could possibly be perforated along the edge with many drilled holes, then bent until it fatigued and gave out?  Is there an way to apply heat enough to weaken the weld so that the plate could be punched out with a long punch and BFH?  Upon reassembly we could attach a jcwhitney style perforated baffle tube to the final exhaust pipe, wrap the baffle in fiberglass, and put it back in the end.  I'm thinking the washer used for the end plate needs to be thick enough that we could drill into the side of it and tap it so that the end plate can be SCREWED onto the muffler shell.  This method of securing it will allow us to take it back off when we need to repack the fiberglass.

This whole ordeal actually has me excited!  I can't believe I gave up on this idea so long ago!  When I get back from Afghanistan I might take one of my 3 remaining POS mufflers (slightly less rusted out) to a buddy of mine who does construction, has a garage full of awesome tools, and loves to weld and help people.  One of us will experiment with this idea eventually.
"Whatever it is, I swear I didn't do it!"

'73 CB500 - Sally

Offline Duanob

  • Bold Timer
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,009
  • Gotcha!
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2011, 12:58:57 PM »
You would really be onto something if rebuilding these is a possibility. You could start your own mail-order service. At $1000 a pop for new I'm most of us would rebuild if it's way cheaper.


Gordon: no problemo on the rust. My bike was burning so much oil through broken valve guides and now worn rings it was dripping out the end of the tailpipe and drain hole for years. No rust problem.
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
Another 1976 CB550K Cafe?

  __o
_- \_<,
(*) /' (*)

Offline Lavis500

  • Why don't you go ask a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • "Don't plan vast projects with half-vast ideas"
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2011, 04:46:26 PM »
As enticing as that sounds, I don't think it would be any better at cost.  Considering how much shipping would cost to AND from, I wouldn't have a very large margin for profit.  Not to mention if I'm doing these in mass I need to:  A)  Buy my own tools B)  Move into a bigger garage C)  Find more time!!

If I could make it work, I would.   :-\
"Whatever it is, I swear I didn't do it!"

'73 CB500 - Sally

Offline neverendingproject

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 76
  • Making the Northwest louder one road at a time
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2011, 09:21:35 PM »
So these are suppose to have packing in them? Looks like they should work ok without any. Is there any way to get them replated?
'75 CB550 K1 Cafe Project

'72 CB500 Japanese market

Offline Lavis500

  • Why don't you go ask a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • "Don't plan vast projects with half-vast ideas"
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2011, 12:54:11 AM »
No no no, stock they don't have any packing.  From the factory they just have the baffle plates that you'll see in the video.  I'm just suggesting to replace rusted baffles with a simple tube and fiberglass setup.

As far as repairing the exhaust's exterior, I know it's steel, so you can easily weld on patches.  However, rechroming will be an expensive process.
"Whatever it is, I swear I didn't do it!"

'73 CB500 - Sally

Offline brooze72

  • Talk to my friends here at SOHC4 if you need an
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,308
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2011, 07:35:20 AM »
I don't want to hijack the thread, but find this interesting.  I had a guy rebuild my 4 into 1 70's japanese aftermarket on my 500K1, I loved the look & shape of it but  it had small holes in the bottom edge & was full of rust, rattled when you shook it.

I would think it would be a lot tougher on the 4 into 4 as you're working with smaller dia piping etc.  The guy just did a simple tube as Lavis described & rolled a new piece of steel for the outside to seat it into.  Chroming is pricey, depending on the place & quality of work, so as you see, I'm living with the black paint.  Not too bad IMHO.  It's a little louder & I get the occasional backfire on decel so I'm considering some fiberglas wrap.  Got a few pics if you're interested. 
2011, 2012 & 2013 Godzilla Relay Rally Rider
"Hold on loosely...don't let go
 If you cling too tightly...you're gonna lose control"
1972 CB500K1 - restored rider
1981 CB650C - new project

Offline Duanob

  • Bold Timer
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,009
  • Gotcha!
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2011, 02:44:43 PM »
Update:

It worked! I took some 22ga sheet metal, used two different size hole saws (1 1/8" and 2 3/8") and cut 4 washers. Cleaned the exhaust tips with simple green and a wire cup brush. Used some muffler exaust pipe goop, pushed the washers on. Drilled and tapped two 4mm holes through the washers and muffler ends and screwed 4mm ss screws and lock washers.

Voila! It sounds great and works perfect. My exhaust was in decent shape without internal rust so no problems with that. In the end I'm pretty happy with the way it runed out and $900 richer fromnot having to buy a new 4 x 4 exhaust.
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
Another 1976 CB550K Cafe?

  __o
_- \_<,
(*) /' (*)

Offline Lavis500

  • Why don't you go ask a
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 306
  • "Don't plan vast projects with half-vast ideas"
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2011, 03:47:04 PM »
So all you did was cap the holes you had in the end cap?  By exhaust pipe goop, do you mean that 1000 degree exhaust adhesive?  I want to see your pictures!!
"Whatever it is, I swear I didn't do it!"

'73 CB500 - Sally

Offline Duanob

  • Bold Timer
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,009
  • Gotcha!
Re: OEM exhaust rebuild?
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2011, 08:56:22 AM »
So all you did was cap the holes you had in the end cap?  By exhaust pipe goop, do you mean that 1000 degree exhaust adhesive?  I want to see your pictures!!

If the rain stops long enough I'll snap a couple and post them. Yes the exhaust goop is used to repair holes in pipes and mufflers so I figure it should work on the very ends of the exhaust. It shouldn't get that hot at the tips.
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
Another 1976 CB550K Cafe?

  __o
_- \_<,
(*) /' (*)