Topic: Clutch adjustment question (CB500) - SOLVED!

[Scott S]

 I have one of the early CB500's with the clutch mechanism/adjustment on the left side of the engine.
 I have a manual and everything in it is for the later models with the adjustment on the right side, like the CB550's.

 I pretty much know how to adjust the clutch....at least I think I do. I had it working nicely before and now, after a couple of minor changes, something just doesn't seem right.

 The two minor changes were:

 Removed sprocket cover I did this to replace the oil pressure switch. I did not touch the clutch cable or adjustment, just put everything back together. The bike sat for several days until I.....

 Installed 400F handle bars This necessitated loosening the adjuster nuts at the engine case just a little bit so I had enough free play in the cable to remove it from the clutch lever.  I reinstalled it and put the nuts back in the same position as before.

 After these changes, the clutch was engaging at the end of the release; meaning, it didn't slip or grab until the lever was about 75% out from the grip.
 I tried adjusting it out with the cable at the engine, but still couldn't get it where I like it. After that, I started from scratch and did the whole shebang.

 -I adjusted the large nut on the sprocket cover
 -Adjusted the cable at the engine
 -Adjusted at the grip

 It's better, but it still releases about ~35-40% from the grip before the clutch starts to grab. I prefer it to start engaging a little sooner. It makes creeping in traffic or leaving a stop sign much smoother than having it engage towards the end of the lever travel.

 The thing is, before I started all this I had about ~1/4" off thread showing on the lower part of the cable, between the lock nut and the adjusting nut. I now have about 7/8" and I have no more adjustment at the lever end.
 I remember the threaded adjusting rod being long, but I'm afraid I have it out too far. It's a genuine Honda clutch cable on a Honda perch with a Honda lever.


 Do I have something screwed up? Would the lower bars make that much difference? Is the threaded adjusting rod too far out?
 What am I missing here?
 

[Scott S]

 One other thing I've considered that may be contributing to this:

 The difference in the grip vs. perch placement on the bars. The stock CB500 bars had about 1/4" between the end of the grip and the LH control. The 400F bars have about 5/8" between the end of the grip and the LH control, effectively moving my hand out towards the end of the lever.
 These are all Honda parts except for the grips and the grips are fully seated on the bar and measure the exact same length. The controls are located using the pins.

CB500:


CB400F

[HondaMan]

This sounds suspiciously like the little ball in the center of the lifter might have fallen out when you had that side cover off. That alone would create the need to "move" the cable in the main case adjuster, just like you have shown, to get things to engage/disengage at all. Maybe check around the garage to see if you can find the little ball? Its a steel ball, like a bearing ball, about 5mm diameter or so.

[Scott S]

 HondaMan, that is a possibility, I guess.

 If I don't touch any of the adjustment and just remove the sprocket cover to check to see if the ball is in place, should I have to readjust when I put it back together?

 The bad thing is, there are ball bearings all over my garage from past projects....steering stem balls from various bikes, clutch adjustment balls from XS650's, etc., etc.

[Scott S]

 And if that is the case...would any of the 5mm balls work? I have a brand new one for an XS somewhere. Not sure if it's 5mm or not, though.

[haill]

5/16 steel  ball should be located in the adjuster mech. sometimes if your clutch rod is broken people will place a ball between the rod as well to increase it's length, but sounds like the ball dropped out. you should place some grease in the bottom of the lifter to stop that from happening easily.

[HondaMan]

HondaMan, that is a possibility, I guess.

 If I don't touch any of the adjustment and just remove the sprocket cover to check to see if the ball is in place, should I have to readjust when I put it back together?

 The bad thing is, there are ball bearings all over my garage from past projects....steering stem balls from various bikes, clutch adjustment balls from XS650's, etc., etc.

Wow, your garage sounds like mine about now, after I've been out there all winter and need to hose the place out.

Any ball that fits all the way down into the hole will work. Honda's intent was to make sure the squared end of the rod did not dig into the lifter mechanism, so the ball acts like a bearing. Normally, removing the side cover and then reinstalling it causes no variance in the clutch adjustment. But, if you find it is missing and then install the ball, you won't be able to get the cover on all the way until you back off on the adjuster and/or cable, back toward its original position. That will be a good clue as to what happened to you.

[Greggo]

My '71's engagement is about 70% out from the grip. 

[Scott S]

5/16 steel  ball should be located in the adjuster mech. sometimes if your clutch rod is broken people will place a ball between the rod as well to increase it's length, but sounds like the ball dropped out. you should place some grease in the bottom of the lifter to stop that from happening easily.

 I pulled the side cover and there IS a steel ball in the adjuster.

 However, I was looking at the diagram you posted and my pushrod is very short....about three inches. Does that mean it's broken? Could I put a ball bearing in there to increase the length, like you suggested?

[Drewery]

Definitely broken. You will probably have to take both covers off and push it out one side. I've had to do that with my 500 once. Also recently replaced the whole lifter mechanism as it had cracked and it could therefore not be used to adjust anything. Ordered it from Honda. Cheap and available.

[Scott S]

 I think there WAS a ball bearing in there (between the two pushrod halves) and it must have fallen out when I had the sprocket cover off. I remember pulling the pushrod out to take a look at it, out of curiosity. You could see a wear spot on the end of the pushrod.

 There was a ball bearing on the garage floor about three feet from the bike, but I have bearings all over the place from steering stems, wheel bearings, etc.
 I measured it and found one in my XS650 parts that was the same size (1/4") and installed it and immediately got all my clutch adjustment back! Yay! I love simple fixes.

[Greggo]

This bearing is closer to the size of a marble.  It's possible that rod is broken.  Were you able to pull it out with the sprocket cover off?

I have a spare 500 motor with a broken clutch lifter rod.

[haill]

glad it worked out for you...
You may want to consider hunting down a new push rod and take a closer look at the lifter assembly and the peace clutch which the push rod connects against/to on the actual clutch pack side. these are wear items and the replacement makes for a happy clutch action.
the push rod makes appearances on eBay from time to time. the rest are still available through parts suppliers.
but all in good time it seems...

[Scott S]

 Well, I guess that ain't gonna work....

 I can get the lever feel adjusted just like I like it with plenty of adjustment at the lever and on the cable, but now the clutch is slipping.
 I tried backing the large adjuster screw all the way out and it still slips at ~5,000 rpm.

 I guess I can:

 A) Put it back like it was and learn to live with it, or...
 B) Look for a one piece pushrod.

 How in the world does the pushrod break, anyway? This one's been this way for as long as I've had the bike. I remember it being short when we originally went through the clutch.

[Scott S]

 Wait! Stop the presses! NOW I've fixed it!

 I took it apart to see if I could get out the other push rod half. While in there, I took the time to loosen and move the adjuster (the one on the sprocket cover). I had noticed that it was VERY hard to move and, with the ball bearing in there, would only move between 11-1 o'clock. I looked at a spare cover I had and studied the movement. While the sprocket cover was loose off the bike, I loosened the adjuster lock-nut and freed it up completely. I was now able to move it from 10-3 o'clock, very easily.

 Put it all back together (yes...with the broken push rod), and adjusted it. I actually felt the adjuster fall into place, adjusted the cable with just a couple of turns and could IMMEDIATELY tell that something was different.
 I now have clutch lever action and clutch engagement like I prefer and no slipping.

 I guess I had somehow disturbed the adjuster when I had it all apart.

 I'll still keep my eyes peeled for a good pushrod, though.

[haill]

good stuff make sure you grease  the lifter using the grease nipple that is right beside the adjuster mech for time to time. that should help in keeping it from seizing up again.

[Greggo]

I'll still keep my eyes peeled for a good pushrod, though.

It's the same unit as the early CL/CB350's if you search on ebay.

[bryanj]

Pushrod gets broken if you run with a slack chain, and you really out to have a one piece one

[Scott S]

 Well, like I said....this one's been broken for as long as I've had the bike.
 Most XS650's have a two piece pushrod and I was used to seeing that, so I didn't think anything was wrong until this thread educated me.

 I'll try to find a one piece one, but it'll have to wait until an oil change to get swapped out. I can't get it out from the left side, so I'll have to pull the clutch basket to do it.

[bryanj]

Dont need to remove the basket, just the outer pressure plate(held with 4 x 6mm bolts) and the mushroom piece then push the rod out.

A two piece rod moves about and makes the seal leak as its usually short

[Scott S]

 I found a good pushrod at the local shop. Maybe on the next oil change I'll swap them out.

 I tried pulling it out  from the LH side with a magnet, but it's just not strong enough. It's just one of those telescoping magnets that you buy at the check-out counter. I wonder if my local shop might have one that's strong enough to pull it out?

 On a side note: Is it a big deal to change the pushrod seal? I've already done the shift shaft seal and I imagine it would be the same. It doesn't leak badly, but there is a minor amount of seepage around the pushrod. Not sure if it's bad enough to mess with, though.

[Greggo]

Not a big deal to change that out.

[bryanj]

You will have great difficulty pulling the remains with a magnet as its alloy!!

[Scott S]

 Well, that explains a lot, huh?  DOH!

[Scott S]

 Finally got around to doing an oil change and changing the broken pushrod...Wow! what a difference. Much better feel at the lever and I haven't been missing shifts or having as many false neutrals.

 The bike would drip a drop or two of oil after a long ride from the LH side cover and I couldn't find out where it was coming from. I'd already changed the sprocket seal and pushrod seal a while back.
  I tightened up the bolt (the tappet cover looking thing) on the oil pump (barely moved) and installed the one piece pushrod and now the oil leaks have even slowed or stopped. Maybe the broken pushrod was wallowing in the seal and letting oil leak out?
 
 Either way, between the fresh oil and correct pushrod, it's much easier to ride and shift.