Author Topic: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic  (Read 7452 times)

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Offline ntm1974

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Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« on: May 17, 2011, 07:37:28 PM »
I am 80 miles into a 76 cb750K and had a chance to take it out on the road again today.  Between 1,200 and 3,000 rpm's the engine doesn't feel very responsive.  There is some hesitation when the throttle isn't very opened.  If I give it more gas, it goes great, and accelerates really well over 3000 rpms (merging onto the parkway at 80 mph is no problem.)  Is this normal for these bikes?  I don't have any other point of reference to know if this is normal.  I thought it might be the slow jet but already cleaned the carbs really well when I adjusted the floats so I am out of ideas.

However.....I did pull the plugs thinking there could be an issue and this is what I found.  1 and 2 look rich but do 3 and 4 look normal or are they lean?  I checked spark on all the plugs by pulling them and holding them against the engine and all "looked" like they sparked the same.  Is this a condition I fix with the air idle screw on the carbs or do is there something else I need to be looking into?  If I have to make adjustments to the air idle screw: how much should I turn it for each adjustment to make a difference (1/4 turn and ride? or more?)

Also adding that I just adjusted the ignition timing with a strobe light and balanced the carbs with vaccum gauges.

Thanks for any help and advice.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 07:46:22 AM by ntm1974 »

Offline ntm1974

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2011, 08:48:30 PM »

Ok, I adjusted the idle jet screws a bit and took the bike for a ride again.  I also noticed that the #2 cylinder was arcing against the engine, I replaced the cap and no more arcing.

  The bike runs great with 1/4+ throttle but still stumbles a bit when barely giving it throttle.  The bike will cut out when closing choke (pulled the lever up.)  I am thinking that maybe I need to get a larger slow jet. (I already cleaned the existing jets out when I adjusted the floats.)  I pulled the plugs and they look a lot better. 

Am I correct in thinking that the slow response with a little throttle could be caused by too small a slow jet or is there something else I should be looking for first?  What is the downside of installing a larger slow jet?  How large of jet size should I increase to if that is the solution?  Currently have stock #40 although it looks aftermarket.

Thanks for any help and replies.  I feel pretty close to getting this bike sorted out.


Offline jimbojangles

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2011, 11:18:23 AM »
I guess I'll try to help.

I can tell you from experience that it only takes one rich cylinder to cause your bike to stumble and stutter under very slight throttle. If you pulled your plugs just after driving at low RPMs (while the problem was occurring) I would say your idle circuit is rich. Looking at your picture I would say #1 & #2 are rich and 3 & 4 are pretty good. Choke would only make things more rich and bigger slow jets would do the same. I think your goal should be to get 1 & 2 to lean up a bit and look like 3 & 4.

First off, how old are those spark plugs? Is that rust starting on #4?  New spark plugs is where I would start. Then I would blow carb cleaner and compressed air through all of the little air passages in the carburetors. After that sync the carbs at idle. Lastly, adjust your mixture screws.

I had one cylinder that always ran a bit rich and had the same problem. Now that it's sorted out it runs great at all RPMs and speeds.

Do a search for "stutter" "hesitate" or maybe "stumble" and you'll probably find some good information. Otherwise I assume someone will come along and offer a better explanation than I did soon.

I know this is probably over simplified, but its a good place to start.

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Offline flybox1

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2011, 11:44:22 AM »
what tune up maintenance steps have you gone thru up to now? valves? timing?
did you bench sync your carbs when they were off for cleaning? did you notice the jet sizes in your carbs?  are they stock sizes? your PO might have messed with them  :-\
did you vacuum synch your carbs once they were back on?
you have only adressed the pilot jet and AF screw setting as the cause.
what about your air intake system?  pods? stock airbox? how old/new/clean is your air filter? 
do all 8 of your carb boots seal well?
yes, new plugs and an oil change is recommended (if you havent already)
need to tell us more.....
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline ntm1974

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2011, 10:52:04 PM »
what tune up maintenance steps have you gone thru up to now? valves? timing?
did you bench sync your carbs when they were off for cleaning? did you notice the jet sizes in your carbs?  are they stock sizes? your PO might have messed with them  :-\
did you vacuum synch your carbs once they were back on?
you have only adressed the pilot jet and AF screw setting as the cause.
what about your air intake system?  pods? stock airbox? how old/new/clean is your air filter? 
do all 8 of your carb boots seal well?
yes, new plugs and an oil change is recommended (if you havent already)
need to tell us more.....

Valves adjusted, points replaced and ignition timing set with a strobe light and dwell meter.  Stock airbox with a new airfilter.  The exhaust is a MAC 4-1.
Floats adjusted and the carbs are clean.
I benched synced and then synced the carbs with vacuum gauges.  Airscrews are 1 turn out from lightly seated.

The jets in the carbs started as 110 main and 40 slow.  The needles are on the third space from the bottom of the needle.

I got a couple of boxes of parts and found the original carb parts (or maybe just other carb parts) and those needles were 98 and 35.  I also came to find out that the PO had hotter than standard plugs installed.  I took the carbs apart again tonight and put in the 98 and 35 jets.  I also put in fresh standard heat range plugs. 

I took it for a short ride and pulled the plugs, 1 and 2 were looking a little rich and 3 and 4 looked ok to slightly lean.  The bike still stutters when you first open throttle but rides great at all speeds over 2,500 rpm.

What is really throwing me for a loop is how all the plugs changed proportionally when I put in the 98/35 jets and standard plugs.  I know I probably shouldn't have changed so many things at once but I felt that it would be a better baseling starting point with the standard plugs and smaller jets. 
                                                                                     
I'm at a bit of a loss for what to do next especially with two cylinders good and 2 rich.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2011, 11:50:42 PM »
I'd skip the fine tuning until I figured out why all the plugs don't show the same deposits.
Recheck the valve clearances.
Check carb couplers for leaks.

If nothing significant found, then go back into the carbs to find out what is different between the carbs which make them provide different mixtures.

You may have to actually measure the jet orifices, to see if they match the stampings (needle jet, too).  Check the needles for number and if they are stock taper profile for all.

Also check the emulsion tubes for clear holes and the same size holes for each carb position.

Are the couplers between filter box and carbs leaking?

Something is different, you have to find out what.   

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline bjatwood

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2011, 06:15:15 PM »
PM sent
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Offline ntm1974

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2011, 07:44:21 PM »
I'd skip the fine tuning until I figured out why all the plugs don't show the same deposits.
Recheck the valve clearances.
Check carb couplers for leaks.

If nothing significant found, then go back into the carbs to find out what is different between the carbs which make them provide different mixtures.

You may have to actually measure the jet orifices, to see if they match the stampings (needle jet, too).  Check the needles for number and if they are stock taper profile for all.

Also check the emulsion tubes for clear holes and the same size holes for each carb position.

Are the couplers between filter box and carbs leaking?

Something is different, you have to find out what.   

Cheers,


Thanks for the advice.  I made sure the airbox was in good shape and replaced all the metal clamps today.  It seems to idle better but the plug readings seem all over the place.  The bike is running pretty well with just a hint of hesitation when you just barely crack the throttle. I am really wondering why #1 is so rich.  I guess the next step is making sure the tubes are clear.  I am also going to go back over the floats and valves too.

Other than that, I am out of ideas.  Do you guys think 1, 2 and 3 looks lean or just about right?

Thanks again for the replies.

Offline jimbojangles

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2011, 08:34:05 PM »
Do you still have all of your mixture screws turned the same number of turns out? Earlier you said they were all 1 turn out.

I don't know about everyone else, but each one of my carbs is at a slightly different setting.  If someone overtightened one of those screws in the past it can really change how many turns is correct for that carburetor. Try backing #4 out another half  turn. My settings range from 1.5 to 2.25 turns out depending on the carb.

Again, I'm assuming your doing your plug chops at low RPM and slight throttle since this is where your experiencing your problems. If your plugs look like this after a half-throttle plug chop then air mixture screws probably won't help.

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2011, 10:47:09 PM »
At what throttle setting are those deposits being made?

If you believe the new clamps made a difference, you may need to recheck the vacuum balance.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline ntm1974

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2011, 07:06:01 AM »
Do you still have all of your mixture screws turned the same number of turns out? Earlier you said they were all 1 turn out.

I don't know about everyone else, but each one of my carbs is at a slightly different setting.  If someone overtightened one of those screws in the past it can really change how many turns is correct for that carburetor. Try backing #4 out another half  turn. My settings range from 1.5 to 2.25 turns out depending on the carb.

Again, I'm assuming your doing your plug chops at low RPM and slight throttle since this is where your experiencing your problems. If your plugs look like this after a half-throttle plug chop then air mixture screws probably won't help.



I have been reluctant to change the idle screws too drastically because the manual says 1 turn out but I will start tweaking more with the screws.

I've been doing my plug chop at the end of my ride which usually has me riding low throttle for about 10 minutes before home.  Is there a better way for me to do the plug chop?  Most of what I've read on the sight about plug chop is full throttle then kill the engine.

At what throttle setting are those deposits being made?

If you believe the new clamps made a difference, you may need to recheck the vacuum balance.

Cheers,

Very little throttle, maybe 1/8 to 1/4.

I didn't think about redoing with the new clamps.  When I hook up my gauges, would more vaccum on the rich cylinder (#1) cause it to run rich?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2011, 10:15:32 AM »
I have been reluctant to change the idle screws too drastically because the manual says 1 turn out but I will start tweaking more with the screws.
Stock settings apply to a totally stock bike.  The exhaust change "may" require a change to those stock ideal settings.
At any rate, on non-accelerator pump carbs, the air bleed screws are set in relation to engine pick up from idle. The idle must be set on the rich side rich to offset the sudden inrush of air and the jet starvation from the throat vacuum dropping as the slides are suddenly opened.

I've been doing my plug chop at the end of my ride which usually has me riding low throttle for about 10 minutes before home.  Is there a better way for me to do the plug chop?  Most of what I've read on the sight about plug chop is full throttle then kill the engine.

The whole idea of the plug chop is to isolate which portion of the carb is dominating the fuel mix and this changes with the throttle position.

For example: a main jet can be set too small, a plug chop at WOT would show lean deposits on the plugs.  However, the slide needle can be set too high, which means the plugs would be carbon black when operating at mid throttle.  The pilot system (air bleed and air screw) can also be set too rich leaving soot on the plug during throttle closed and and 1/4 throttle position.
If you operate the engine in all these ranges, the plug deposits give you only a general indication or average of all throttle positions used since installed in the engine.

The plug chop procedure is to arrive at your test track with the engine at operating temperature.  Then install fresh, clean spark plugs, start a wail down the track at WOT, allowing enough time for deposits to accumulate on the spark plugs (1/4 to 1/2 mile with the engine fully loaded to full power).  Then simultaneously hit the kill switch and pull in the clutch, coast to a stop, pull the plugs and read them.  They will have the deposit pattern of the engine under load at full throttle.  Only the main jet was used during the run, so the deposit pattern applies directly to the main jet.

After getting the main jet adjusted for ideal combustion, you then move on to adjusting the mid throttle in a similar way using clean new plugs.  Note the the engine must be loaded so as to make the most power at that throttle setting (a steep hill is nice).  Again you are looking for spark deposit that tell you whether the needles are providing soot or no deposits on the spark plugs.  This will tell you how to adjust the slide needle up or down, to get the ideal mixture at the mid throttle position.

Then the taper of the needle is checked at the 2/3 and 1/3 throttle positions, in turn.  Plug chops at those positions under power.  Read/adjust.

Finally, the air bleeds are adjusted to that in top gear at idle, the throttle can be whacked to 1/2 of total travel and the engine will pick up smoothly and reliably with burble or stumble.

I will point out that a dyno run will give a fuel map over the entire operating range, allow one to attack or adjust multiple fuel metering points after a single test run.

Very little throttle, maybe 1/8 to 1/4.
Then those are the fuel metering circuits that have dominated the plug deposit patterns, leaving little or no information about slide needles or main jet settings.

I didn't think about redoing with the new clamps.  When I hook up my gauges, would more vacuum on the rich cylinder (#1) cause it to run rich?

The vacuum (or pressure differential) is what pulls the fuel up from the bowls.  (technocrats, stand down)  For a given amount of air passing through the carb throat, varying the vacuum level directly changes the amount of fuel drawn through fuel jets, and thus the air/fuel ratio.

Having said that, I still maintain it is pointless to do any fine tuning until all the carbs/cylinders are behaving the same.  Because after that, any changes will be applied to all carbs equally.

Hope this helps,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline ntm1974

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2011, 04:03:29 PM »

TwoTired,

Awesome post.  That really ties together the bits and pieces I have been reading on the sight and in books.

I put the carb vacuum gauges back on the bike and there were slightly off after putting on the new hose clams.  Do you carb sync everytime you take off your carbs and/or change a jet?



Offline TwoTired

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2011, 05:04:44 PM »
Easy to put the gauges on and check sync.  Then adjust if necessary.  It eliminates a performance variable knowing they are synced.

My bikes are all pretty stock (induction and exhaust-wise).  I find stock bikes are far more reliable than hot rods/mod rods. (not that hot rods aren't fun to work on.  I just like to decide when to work on them.  And hot rods seem to make their own timetable, whereas stockers tend to behave until the next routine and scheduled maintenance interval.)

Anyway, I can usually check for general carb sync by feeling the head pipes for even heat at idle.  If one is a bit colder, it's usually a plugged slow jet, pilot circuit issue or carb sync. Spark plug fouling is another possibility.  But, anytime the the bike doesn't run as expected, the tune up check list is at least verified, if not redone.  I've learned to do the carb tune last, or do it two or three times after changing a tune up item or two.

But, carb syncs don't usually change much once the bike is in proper running condition.  But, you have to get the bike in proper condition first.  A resurrection can require several carb syncs until that last bit of needed attention elsewhere is corrected.  Then it is just fixing what broke.  Certainly,  if a slide position meddled with, then a carb sync is required each time.
But if, say, you did a carb sync with a leaking carb coupler, well then the previous carb sync was done under false set up conditions, and at least needs to be checked.
Until you get everything back to factory like condition, the fine tuning/synchronization may have to be done repetitively, until the nasty bits have been banished.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline ntm1974

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2011, 08:41:54 PM »

Pulled the carbs yet again today and looked over everything very closely again.  Nothing stood out except a slightly twisted float but that was only off by maybe 1mm on the one side.  Never the less, I made sure all the passage ways were clear, double checked the couplers and went over each float.  I synched again and went for a 1/2 mile ride at 1/8 to 1/4 throttle with new plugs.

The plugs look more consistent and took about 3 or 4 rides of messing with the airscrews to get consistent plug readings.  I think they are a little on the rich side but no far off track.  Maybe a 1/4 turn here and there to get it perfect.  The only thing that concerns me is that the airscrews range from 1/2 turn out to 2.5 turns out.  Should this concern me?  The bike is idles well but still stutters just a touch when coming out of 1st gear when you barely crack the throttle.  Stepfather rode it around a bit for the weekend (he grew up riding bikes from this era) and said he thought it road well.

I think I'm on the right track now.  What do you guys think?  Should my next step be Full Throttle and then 1/2 throttle?  Or should I lean out at this stage before moving on.

New plugs readings:


Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2011, 09:01:02 PM »
Haven't seen where you verified the 'slow' jets and their air bleeds, or did I miss that ?
Are the slow jets  ( simply unscrew to examine ) clear both thru' the jet and emulsion holes ? Just as important, is the air bleed clear from the carb throat ?.... if not then a 'stream' of gas is sucked in @ low throttle instead of the intended 'froth' of gas and premixed air ( much lighter/leaner ) than a pure gas stream, seewhatimsaying ?
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline ntm1974

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2011, 10:00:29 AM »
Haven't seen where you verified the 'slow' jets and their air bleeds, or did I miss that ?
Are the slow jets  ( simply unscrew to examine ) clear both thru' the jet and emulsion holes ? Just as important, is the air bleed clear from the carb throat ?.... if not then a 'stream' of gas is sucked in @ low throttle instead of the intended 'froth' of gas and premixed air ( much lighter/leaner ) than a pure gas stream, seewhatimsaying ?

I cleaned up the slow jets and air needle.  I also flushed the carb body with carb cleaner.  I am thinking that one of the reasons for the drastically different screw settings could be the way that the fuel line is run. 

The fuel line goes from the petcock to a "T" and is connected to 1 and 2 with a 1.5 inch fuel line and to 3 and 4 with approximately a 3 inch section of fuel line.  I am going to equalize the distance from the "T" later today and see if that brings the airscrew adjustments more in line.

Offline Duanob

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2011, 10:59:50 AM »
I've got a real forehead slapper for ya. I had trouble with rich running carbs mostly the 3 and 4 carbs. I pulled the carb rack and went through the carbs for the third time. Got it running better but still running a bit rich. I have a complete OEM airbox, tool tray, exhaust everything. I was riding around and stopped by another member's house in my neighborhood to show off the bike. I popped the seat to show the tool tray and the first thing he notices is a rag I use for gassing up, sitting right on top of the airhorn. He said that might make your bike run funny. **slap forehead** It sure did. Just a thought that something might be amiss in the air supply?
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2011, 11:22:54 AM »
I popped the seat to show the tool tray and the first thing he notices is a rag I use for gassing up, sitting right on top of the airhorn.
hahahahahahaha!!! ;D 
almost as good as when i went for a ride, and bike stopped running. wouldnt start either.  :o
forgot to turn on gas, felt dumb  ::), no biggie, turned on tap, tank peed all down the inside of my left calf.  :o
forgot to hook up fuel line...felt even dumber  :-[
....slid her back on and rode off quickly so no one would see me and the wet spot i left.   ;D

hey nmt1974, you should be really close to good on your settings for WOT and mid range if your pilot/main jets and airbox are stock for your bike/carbs.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline ntm1974

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2011, 05:50:21 PM »


I changed up the fuel line routing and now have the petcock go into a "T" with equal lengths of hose going to each carb.  It seems like it richened up 3 and 4 to the point were I no longer have to have the airscrew just a half turn out.  2,3,4 all look pretty good when doing a plug chop at 1/8 throttle but #1 is still a little rich.  The "lag" at low throttle is barely noticeable but should I be worried about  #1 running rich?  I already have the airscrew almost 3 turns out and am not sure if I should even mess with it any further.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2011, 08:19:52 PM »
Are your main jet needles @ stock setting or raised ? and is your float level correct in each carb ?
Each or either incorrect could cause low rpm rich running.......
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline ntm1974

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2011, 08:28:03 PM »
Are your main jet needles @ stock setting or raised ? and is your float level correct in each carb ?
Each or either incorrect could cause low rpm rich running.......

Jet needles are 3 notches up from the bottom and all set the same.  I would be reluctant to change the needle heights until I do my plug chop at 1/2 throttle and full throttle.  Or do you think I should change it now?

The floats are all set the same at 26mm.  I don't have any gas coming out of the overflow tubes but: Could the float be bad?  How would I check for a bad float?


Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2011, 04:39:28 PM »
I rode around for ages with a 'sunk' float !.... could be that, esp. if 1 cly. is richer than the rest and they are all set @ 26mm. Take out the offending cly. float and shake it for any gas inside, also submerge it in some gas for an hour, see if it takes on any gas.... good luck. Obviously a float with gas inside would allow a higher bowl fuel level before closing the valve.
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline ntm1974

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2011, 07:14:27 PM »


Set all the floats using a clear plastic tube out of the drain hole as a stack.  I got all the float levels about 3 mm from the edge of the bowl.  I have aftermarket float needles and I suspect that is why the 26mm wasn't working.

Doing this really richened up #4 and #2 and 3 look good too but # 1 was STILL running rich.

I pulled the plug caps and tried to measure the resistance of the caps.  The # 4 is at 5.4ohms but # 1 is not giving me any reading at all.  I suspect this could be causing a problem.

Am I on the right track?


Offline david 750f

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Re: Hesitation at low RPMS and Plug reading cb750k with pic
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2011, 07:17:46 PM »
Your plug caps should all read the same resistance.  Check all of them.
1976 CB 750F