Topic: It's making me crazy

[Bodain]

When I got the 750 Honda. One of the first things I did was purchase the Harley type rear rim. The 550 has it and it looks great. So I purchased a set of spokes from Ebay... I could hardly wait to start the task. The spoke finally arrived and I went to the task. I first got all the inside spokes on. Then I went to work on the outside spokes. It was very clear something was wrong. The outside spokes just don't come in enough. I even tried bending them. Still it's not right. Finally I give up..

Now I look more carefully on Ebay for the spokes to lace up a Honda hub to the Harley type 16 rim. Again I make a purchase. These should indeed work. They have the bend in the outside spokes. I start the task and once again I have the same problem. The outside spoke just won't work...

I've about had it. Anyone have any experience with the lacing up the Honda hub to the Harley 16 rim. Those outside spoke just never seem to be bent enough.

[heffay]

i don't know if this will help or hinder or just plain do nothing but, read these notes from my MMI days. 


CLINIC #2

SUBJECT: Wheel Lacing

 1. Reasons for repairing or replacing wheels
  A.   Hub damage- broken or worn brake lining
  B.   Bent rim
  C.   Damaged spokes
 2. Wheel design- 2 major categories
  A.   Cast or mag
      1)   Usually tubeless type tires (will indicate on rim)
      2)   Construction materials used
         a)   Aluminum (most common)
         b)   Magnesium
         c)   Carbon fiber
  B.   Spoke
      1)   Usually tube type.  There are tubeless (spokes are hung on flange from rim instead of being inside)
      2)   3 parts
         a)   Rim- steel or aluminum
         b)   Hub
         c)   Spokes
 3. Hub designs
  A.   Equal flange: Hub flanges have equal diameter
      1)   Spokes are equal distance from the rim or both sides
  B.   Conical Flange: Hub flanges have very different diameters
      1)   Lighter design than equal flange
      2)   Spokes are different length from left to right side
  C.   Offset flange: Hub flanges have slightly different diameters
      1)   Small flange usually reinforced to support drive unit or rear brake
 4. Spoke types
  A.   Inners: usually have head angles less than 90 degrees
  B.   Outers: usually have head angles more than 90 degrees   
 5.  Like spokes
  A.   4 groups of like spokes
      1)   Left side inners
      2)   Left side outers
      3)   Right side inners
      4)   Right side outers
  B.   Usually 3 spokes in between like spokes on a typical rim
 6.  Key spokes
  A.   Any 2 spokes used to determine lacing pattern of a wheel
  B.   Usually 1 spoke on each side of the hub
 7.  Finding key spokes
  A.   Place rim flat on a table w/ the valve stem hole at 6-o-clock
  B.   The 1st spoke to the left of the stem hole should be an inner
      1)   This is the 1st key spoke
  C.   Follow the spoke up to the hub, it should be attached to the hub flange (upper-side)
  D.   Drop straight down across the hub to the lower hub flange
  E.   Select the 1st spoke to the right, this should be an inner spoke on the lower flange
      1)   This is the 2nd key spoke
  F.   Follow the 2nd key spoke out to the rim
  G.   Count the holes (or spokes) between the key spokes on the rim to determine the lacing pattern
      1)   2nd # in lacing pattern represents the # of holes or spokes between key spokes
      2)   Examples
           a)   3-10
           b)   3-6
 8. Assembling the wheel
  A.   Look for bedding marks on the hub
      1)   Wear marks in the hub flange or spoke holes
  B.   Place one key spoke (usually an inner) into the upper flange
  C.   Drop straight down to the lower hub flange
      1)   Place the 2nd key spoke in the 1st hole to the right
  D.   Install remaining inner spokes into the flange using every other hole
  E.   Install key spokes in the appropriate holes on the rim
  F.   Lace the rest of the inner spokes to the rim leaving 3 holes between like spokes
  G.   Place the remaining spokes into the hub

[clarkjh]

Heff, I read and re-read your post 3 or 4 times, can you draw a diagram and post?  I will have to do this in the near future.

James

[heffay]

well, that's just it... these notes give general instructions on several different types of wheels.   and, many wheels are different but, this should at least cover the basics.  the most important part is identifying key spokes... it's cake from there. 

so, diagram... um... unless i get REALLY bored... probably not 

bodain~  do you have a truing stand or will you leave that up to someone else?

[Dusthawk]

Hey bro, I know the spokes you got, The Midnight Motors ones right? I just got them myself and I did it the other way around. I laced up the bent spokes around the inside of the straight spokes, It looks like it works fine this way. The rim is at my local shop waiting for bearings and to get trued as I don't have the stand.

I hope this helps,

Peace and Long Rides,

Jeff

[Dusthawk]

Heff, I read and re-read your post 3 or 4 times, can you draw a diagram and post? I will have to do this in the near future.

James

Oh, and http://www.hondahog.com has a manual that includes how to lace with some pics. once there, click on honda chopper tech publications and its is one of those two manuals.

Peace and Long Rides,

Jeff

[Bodain]

Hey bro, I know the spokes you got, The Midnight Motors ones right? I just got them myself and I did it the other way around. I laced up the bent spokes around the inside of the straight spokes, It looks like it works fine this way. The rim is at my local shop waiting for bearings and to get trued as I don't have the stand.

I hope this helps,

Peace and Long Rides,

Jeff

Well no...

This is the second set I purchased...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4628240323&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

It's interesting that both the inner and outer are the same length. The outer spoked have a slight bend that not near enough.
If you reversed them. You would have to bend the straight spokes a great deal.

[Bodain]

well, that's just it... these notes give general instructions on several different types of wheels.   and, many wheels are different but, this should at least cover the basics.  the most important part is identifying key spokes... it's cake from there. 

so, diagram... um... unless i get REALLY bored... probably not 

bodain~  do you have a truing stand or will you leave that up to someone else?

No.. If I ever get to that point I will mount back up on the bike and true it that way. I've done others this way and it works fine.

I've done this before with standard spokes. I've just never laced up spokes this short and tight.
 The 75 550 is identical to what I'm trying to do on the 750. So I have a visual. There is nothing wrong with my pattern.
I'm really starting to believe the spokes sold on Ebay for this very thing are simply not the right spokes.

http://www.buchananspokes.com/    Sells a spoke set for this exact thing, but they run $100.00 per set.
I've just emailed them asking the diminsions on their set.

The first set I got off ebay didn't even have a bend in the outer spokes. The second set had the bend so I was certain these were right.
So much for certainty.   

At this point I'm ready to lace up the original spokes to the original rim and put this in the corner.

[Dusthawk]

On that first set without the bends, on the head end before the bend, are they the same length or are half longer by about a quarter inch? The longer ones are the inners if so.

Peace and Long Rides,

Jeff

[bwaller]

It looks like they're both inners with that little extra bend on the one set. Outers ordinarily have more than a 90 degree angle. I can see why you're having trouble.

[clzay]

yeah just like he said above, they both run on the inside. I just finished doing this 16" conversion on my CB550. I was stressin tell I figured out both the spokes thread through the middle of the hub out. Try that and if you still can't figure it out send me a message and i'll send some pictures to help you along.

[Bodain]

It looks like they're both inners with that little extra bend on the one set. Outers ordinarily have more than a 90 degree angle. I can see why you're having trouble.

Things are looking up. I thought about your comment. I didn't lace the 16 wheel on my 550. It was there when I bought it.
The pattern on that is ten outside and ten inside for each side. Since it's basically the same wheel I was following that pattern.
Hence all my grief as you already know!

Then I came across this picture...



And I have a moment of clarity..... All of these are on the inside as you suggest...

Ok... I'm immediately out in the garage. The wheel laces up just fine....    <Grin> This feels good!

New problem.... I love these challenges....   The spokes are about 3/16 too long. You can't tighten them up...
This should be easy to deal with. A tap and die to extend the threads on the spokes should do it.

[animal]

OK I learned something! Great, & Thanks, now who knows where to get a set of chrome spokes to do the same with an old sohc cb750F rear disc? I can find the drum spokes for $14.95 but I can only find the disc spokes from that Evil place mentioned above for $100.00