Author Topic: Steering damper anyone? (Read 67254 times)

TrueSpin · « **Reply #25 on:** June 18, 2011, 12:35:01 PM »

I was looking at the NHK one for around 50, but it seems a lot shorter than the one Jaguar is using.
I'm a little concerned it will cut off your bar movement.

Nortstudio · « **Reply #26 on:** June 18, 2011, 12:58:53 PM »

I had the same concern, but it seems it's the same one Retro Rocket was using for his bikes, and he had No problems. I will report back after I get it.

It does seem that it may interfere with the horn on the right side. Maybe I'll end up trying the fork bracket after all.

singedebile · « **Reply #27 on:** June 18, 2011, 01:57:44 PM »

joining a little late,

here in philly i have experienced the same thing.. a sort of ridge in the road extending from one side to the other and just as often in the middle of a corner (which is where it can get freighting), the roads around and in cities in the U.S. are just horrible too much of the time.
I was just in france and belgium a month or so ago and was simply blown away by how beautiful the roads were, flawless sweeping turns, essentially no pot-holes at all ... even the dirt roads were smooth and beautiful add to it some awesomely reflective lines that you can actually see at night when it rains and its a real pleasure to drive there.

754 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 18, 2011, 11:18:41 PM »

Brief summary of this topic to date,
Steering Dampers,
by 754
Some swear by them, some swear at them.

Deltarider · « **Reply #29 on:** June 19, 2011, 12:37:51 AM »

All the above leaves me with just one question. Is there anybody that had a tankslapper on a CB 500 or CB 550 Four? Or is there maybe something in the steering geometry of these bikes that prevents this?
Two reasons I ask: the above mentioned dealer used to race and could have easily sold me one. BTW, he was the same dealer that advised me to stay away from cheap contactbreakers and that pods would bring nothing.
Second reason I ask: how come in over 100.000 kms including bad and potholed roads in Spain and Greece, twisties in the French and Swiss Alps and thousands of miles on 'runways' like the Italian Autostradi and the German Autobahns haven't brought me one tankslapper. Did I do something wrong? Not looking for an argument, I want to learn. 'You had just sheer luck' doesn't impress me, I'm afraid. The advocats of a steering damper have another question to answer: why isn't the device obligatory like other safety items like brakes and a horn to mention a few? IMO unless you have put on a windscreen or a fairing or something else that effects steering, you will not need one.

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #30 on:** June 19, 2011, 02:23:30 AM »

Quote

All the above leaves me with just one question. Is there anybody that had a tankslapper on a CB 500 or CB 550 Four? Or is there maybe something in the steering geometry of these bikes that prevents this?

There is nothing that prevents it on any bike without one, these old bikes actually have quite steep steering geometry, raise the rear a little and the rake is almost the same as my 1988GSXR which came standard with a damper.

Quote

Second reason I ask: how come in over 100.000 kms including bad and potholed roads in Spain and Greece, twisties in the French and Swiss Alps and thousands of miles on 'runways' like the Italian Autostradi and the German Autobahns haven't brought me one tankslapper. Did I do something wrong?

You've been lucky, whether you like it or not....

Quote

'You had just sheer luck' doesn't impress me, I'm afraid.

You did watch the clips didn't you, there's plenty of luck involved in escaping one of these, the oscillations can be that violent that they rip your hands off the bars, now unless you are Houdini the ONLY thing that will save you is luck.

Quote

another question to answer: why isn't the device obligatory like other safety items like brakes and a horn to mention a few?

Choppers are very stable because of their rake and trail, most other bikes apart from cruisers DO HAVE DAMPERS as stock equipment. To save this ending up an argument, go and read about rake and trail and its effects on steering and stability and you will see why some bikes have them, even if one bike in testing was "nervous" all production bikes in that model will have a damper. Its like an insurance policy mate, you may never need one but when the time comes{if it ever does} you will be extremely glad that you had one. They have been fitted to bikes as far back as the early 1900's when bikes were first built.

Deltarider · « **Reply #31 on:** June 19, 2011, 05:00:50 AM »

I repeat the question: anyone had a tankslapper on a CB500 or CB550 Four?
It's practically the same question this thread started with.

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #32 on:** June 19, 2011, 05:27:13 AM »

Actually Nortstudio contacted me by PM and asked about mounting one to his bike, because i only have had 750's i suggested he start a thread to see where others had mounted their dampers, i was unsure if the smaller Honda's had the threaded hole in the lower clamp for mounting the damper.

Quote from: Deltarider on June 19, 2011, 05:00:50 AM

I repeat the question: anyone had a tankslapper on a CB500 or CB550 Four?
It's practically the same question this thread started with.

That question is futile really, i don't know what makes you think that no 500 550 bikes have had a tank slapper, all bikes are capable, it is a commonly known phenomenon and can happen at any time. Lots of things can cause one, bad steering head bearings, bad tyre, misaligned forks, a combination of conditions of the roads and the resonant frequencies involved. Someone some where on a 500=550 has had a tankslapper so what i would like to know is what do you exactly want to know.? No bike is immune to this, but that doesn't mean it will happen to everyone.

Dunk · « **Reply #33 on:** June 19, 2011, 05:54:10 AM »

I never rode a bike with a damper, but I did have a nasty tank slapper at 75-80 MPH and went down on my K1. I may have been able to ride it out if the highway didn't turn to the right... Choice was try to keep it under control going straight into the ditch or try to turn. I tried to lean a bit for the turn and the second I did that it got worse and threw me off the bike. Got a few scars from that one.

It happens very fast and is obscenely violent. You don't have much time to react or think about what to do. Anything you can do make it easier to ride out is money well spent. I just checked my lower tree and it does have a hole that could be used for a damper. I'll be taking some measurements, figuring out a rear mount, and ordering a damper. I got lucky last time, if it ever happens again I want to stay on the bike.

Tintop · « **Reply #34 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:29:53 AM »

After having a slapper on a DOHC 750F @ 120+mph, and luckily managing to ride it out, everything has aquired a damper since.

I have an NHK on my 550. My only comment on fitting them is that they should be on the LEFT side of the bike. That hole in the lower clamp isn't for a damper, it's just convienent. Putting it on the left (using a fork clamp) means you can adjust it while moving, without removing your hand from the throttle / brake position. In the city it gets set softer for easy turning in tight spaces, and when I want it stiffer (hwy, rough road twisties), I just reach down and add a couple of clicks, all while still moving along.

my .02

Deltarider · « **Reply #35 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:48:23 AM »

Quote

No bike is immune to this

Then why is it not law to have one?

bwaller · « **Reply #36 on:** June 19, 2011, 06:59:32 AM »

When I raced my 750 eons ago it became unsettled when my front tire & the rear of another bike just barely touched and it ended in a violent tank slapper. I was lucky but later an old timer in the pits told me the best way out of the situation is to unload the front by accelerating. It works, but probably isn't aways possible.

As far as dampers go I have always had one, but rarely ever feel the need to adjust tension. Don't set them too stiff, make sure to install them with absolutely no play in their mounts, plus in a way that they use all available travel, otherwise they ARE only decoration.

Tripps · « **Reply #37 on:** June 19, 2011, 07:29:16 AM »

Quote from: Deltarider on June 19, 2011, 06:48:23 AM

Quote
No bike is immune to this

Then why is it not law to have one?

That's like asking why it isn't law that all airline passengers have parachutes.

Dunk · « **Reply #38 on:** June 19, 2011, 07:48:29 AM »

Quote from: Deltarider on June 19, 2011, 06:48:23 AM

Quote
No bike is immune to this

Then why is it not law to have one?

In the States we have individual liberty, at least we're supposed to. How that applies in this respect is it is each individual's responsibility to take care of himself as he sees fit, not government's job. If every bike would go into a tank slapper every time it his a bump at highway speed, there might be a law mandating stabilizers... But even if that were the case government intervention would be unnecessary as manufacturers would ship all bikes with stabilizers if it were that common of a problem. You already see most never sport bikes with short fork angles coming with them, as these bikes are more prone to tank slappers.

At the end of the day different people find different levels of risk acceptable, and do differing levels of things to minimize that risk based on that. Everyone has a choice, and to each his own.

Tintop · « **Reply #39 on:** June 19, 2011, 08:46:13 AM »

Quote from: bwaller on June 19, 2011, 06:59:32 AM

When I raced my 750 eons ago it became unsettled when my front tire & the rear of another bike just barely touched and it ended in a violent tank slapper. I was lucky but later an old timer in the pits told me the best way out of the situation is to unload the front by accelerating. It works, but probably isn't aways possible.

As far as dampers go I have always had one, but rarely ever feel the need to adjust tension. Don't set them too stiff, make sure to install them with absolutely no play in their mounts, plus in a way that they use all available travel, otherwise they ARE only decoration.

Unloading the front end seems to be the key. Mine was on the 401 @ 1AM, so had two lanes on good, empty pavement to work with, and basically did that. Slid back on the seat, eased open the throttle slightly, and the slap turned into a slow oscillation weave, which slowly came straight. Seems I got luckly, and my instinct was right that time, I'm sure it wasn't my skill level.

I agree that you can basically set a damper to your preference, and forget it, for the majority of most riding. It's just that I like the idea of being able to adjust it on the fly, easily, quickly, and safely, to changing conditions. It's like having bias adjustable brakes in a race car, and then not being to adjust them from inside.

My .02 - For the $25+ that a billet fork clamp costs (for left side mounting), you get more than that back in the added function. The GP guys do it that way, and all the new top mount dampers are left hand adjust.

seanbarney41 · « **Reply #40 on:** June 19, 2011, 10:14:19 AM »

interesting...just stumbled on this video...slightly amusing(don't think it was meant to be) period piece that may contain some pertinent info on this...The video instructs riders to lay down on the tank to smooth out a tank slapper...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvsDIq3WwVA&feature=player_embedded#at=389

Really? · « **Reply #41 on:** June 19, 2011, 11:33:55 AM »

That weave is like the warble I would get in a high speed sweeper. It was frame flex giving to me. Wished I had known just to lay forward, hehe. Those freaked me out bad, prolly since a tank slapper took me down once. Those guys were doing it on purpose too!

Love the bike he was sitting on! XS Eleven Standard, '78 maybe.

Nortstudio · « **Reply #42 on:** June 19, 2011, 11:43:39 AM »

I really didn't expect this type of debate when I originally posed the question. Maybe I should have known better

To reiterate, this was the crux of my inquiry...

Quote

but some of the bumps and potholes I have encountered recently, have made me wonder if I might not see a bit of improvement/safety out of one of these things.

I wasn't specifically thinking about tank slappers, although that would certainly be something I'd love to avoid. I was wondering if this addition to the bike might generally offer some stability, in both moderate or severe steering situations. It seems that some people feel it could be, so I went ahead and ordered one.

For me, the cost is offset, not only by the potentially increased physical stability, but also by the fact that it may offer a little added peace of mind. Whether I ever encounter the dire situation that absolutely needs it, I feel better knowing it MIGHT help on such an occasion, or even help with just keeping my steering as tight as it can be, in less severe, day to day riding. I assumed this is why they come with multiple stiffness settings, so that they made aid the steering in a variety of riding conditions.

Quote from: Deltarider on June 19, 2011, 06:48:23 AM

Quote
No bike is immune to this

Then why is it not law to have one?

Delta, fair point. But this begs the questions: Why were seat belts not made mandatory, the minute it became known that they could save lives? Or, more obvious, why are cigarettes still legal?

In this country ( and I would guess many others), laws are not strictly dictated by reason. In fact, it seems there is often a fairly long lag time, between the discovery and the implementation of protective measures (see cigarette question above).

While I can respect your questioning the fact that "luck" be the only force at play ( I am not one to subscribe to superstition), in preventing you from ever having a tank slapper, I wonder if you don't agree, that precaution is a step worth taking?

This makes me think of the example of helmets. I choose a full-faced version, because I hope that it may provide better protection, in the event of a crash. But of course, I have no way of knowing whether said crash would directly effect the front side of my noggin. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, but I choose to play it on the safer side. But legally, in most States, you are only required to wear ANY helmet, not the proven safest one. Here in the States, for many years, some places did not require a helmet at all. No argument to be made that THAT was clearly not the safest choice.

The trigger has been pulled on this purchase already, thanks to all points of view here. I imagine I'll have a better opinion of whether or not I feel it was worthwhile, in a few months.

Thanks for all the feedback folks. Let's hope we all do another 100,000kms and more, with no tank slapping or any other steering instability.

Scott

Deltarider · « **Reply #43 on:** June 19, 2011, 12:00:33 PM »

Couldn't agree more with that vid. No mention of steering dampers, however. But the riders in that vid are stunningly ignorant ofcourse. Just watch how they are persistently on the wrong side of the road! Dressing up like an orange will not be of much help, I'm afraid.

I like they pay attention to those horrible topcases that will ruin a bike's handling. Ironically enough you see them most often in the U.K.

Quote

Wished I had known just to lay forward,

That's what they teach you if you follow a proper training.

neverendingproject · « **Reply #44 on:** June 19, 2011, 12:23:29 PM »

What I take away from that video is...

diets are dangerous

Tintop · « **Reply #45 on:** June 19, 2011, 01:06:51 PM »

Quote from: neverendingproject on June 19, 2011, 12:23:29 PM

What I take away from that video is...

diets are dangerous

So being heavier means I can go faster? Where's that all you can eat bar, are they going to lose money. Is there a table that tells you how many extra mph gained / lb. of rider weight added?

13 minutes, and not one Murray Walkerism.

Quote from: Deltarider on June 19, 2011, 12:00:33 PM

..... Dressing up like an orange will not be of much help, I'm afraid.....

Not so sure about that Deltarider. Those riders today wearing a safety green vest, or jackets certainly are very visable, and that was the point - be visable, don't blend in. The cagers aren't looking for a thin vertical shape.

malcolmgb · « **Reply #46 on:** June 19, 2011, 03:10:14 PM »

Honda sports bikes in the 60's CB72/7 and I think CB92 not sure about CB450 had friction type steering dampers as standard, then the the SOHC4 were produced and Honda seemed to think steering dampers were not needed.

I have thought of fitting a damper to my 400, not to prevent 'tank slappers' but to make my steering a little 'heavier' it always feels too light for my style of riding.

Not read all of this thread but the video of the crash going down Bray Hill is interesting because the bike almost certainly had a damper fitted and it didn't seem to help.

Retro Rocket · « **Reply #47 on:** June 19, 2011, 04:38:02 PM »

Quote

That's what they teach you if you follow a proper training.

You keep rabbiting on about "proper training", did you see the guy at the Isle of Man.? Don't you think he had proper training.? Do watch any motorcycle racing .? You see head shakes regularly, these bikes have dampers thats why they usually just ride them out, not always, but most of the time, without dampers they would be going down a lot more frequently. NO amount of training will save you if you have a violent tank slapper, if you had experienced one you wouldn't be so cynical, they can easily rip the bars out of your hands or break your fingers by slamming them repeatedly against the tank, even damaging the steering stops. Yes opening the throttle works to a degree, but not all the time. There is nothing set in stone with this phenomenon. Try opening the throttle whilst cornering and coming into a tightening radius corner..!!!
They can happen that fast that you are down before you have time to react. It is the worst thing that has ever happened to me whilst riding,{apart from a hit and run} its just plain scary. I hope no one has to experience one of these, experienced or not, but if you do it will change your opinion guaranteed....As i said earlier, it is an insurance policy, i still like to ride hard at times and since experiencing my first slapper, {1980} almost every bike i have owned has had one. I highly recommend steering dampers.

Now Nort wanted to see them fitted to 500-550's, anyone got any pics..?

Tintop · « **Reply #48 on:** June 19, 2011, 04:53:16 PM »

How about these Retro. Sorry, none of the 'bolted to the triple'.

My 550 frame during mockup
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=70130.msg780592#msg780592
And for something completely different, bwaller's race setup. Very trick.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83871.msg984042#msg984042

Greggo · « **Reply #49 on:** June 19, 2011, 05:01:48 PM »

Quote from: Deltarider on June 19, 2011, 12:37:51 AM

All the above leaves me with just one question. Is there anybody that had a tankslapper on a CB 500 or CB 550 Four? Or is there maybe something in the steering geometry of these bikes that prevents this?
Two reasons I ask: the above mentioned dealer used to race and could have easily sold me one. BTW, he was the same dealer that advised me to stay away from cheap contactbreakers and that pods would bring nothing.
Second reason I ask: how come in over 100.000 kms including bad and potholed roads in Spain and Greece, twisties in the French and Swiss Alps and thousands of miles on 'runways' like the Italian Autostradi and the German Autobahns haven't brought me one tankslapper. Did I do something wrong? Not looking for an argument, I want to learn. 'You had just sheer luck' doesn't impress me, I'm afraid. The advocats of a steering damper have another question to answer: why isn't the device obligatory like other safety items like brakes and a horn to mention a few? IMO unless you have put on a windscreen or a fairing or something else that effects steering, you will not need one.

I have had a tank slapper on my '71 500/4. It can happen to any bike. Mine happened on what's called the 'Great Highway' here in San Francisco. It runs along 5 miles of ocean, and a windy week had blown what was basically a 6-inch sand dune onto the road. The car in front of me went over it no problem, but it was spread across both lanes of the road, so I couldn't avoid it no matter how hard I tried. I planted my weight on the pegs (I learned that on this forum!) and rode it out. Hands down scariest experience I've ever had on a bike. I was only going 30mph to boot!

News:

Author Topic: Steering damper anyone? (Read 67254 times)