Author Topic: How do you know if you have good brakes? (Read 5431 times)

hawkman · « **on:** April 24, 2006, 06:54:21 PM »

I recently purchased a 1976 CB750F, and have been working on the bike to make it reliable.
So far so good.
Replaced the fork seal, cleaned the carbs, set the timing, adjusted the cam chain tensioner, replaced the brake pads, etc.
It rides great, but it doesn't have the greatest brakes.
I use the front brakes to slow down a bit for a corner, but when I need to really scrub off some speed, I have to use both front and back brakes.
My question is if this is normal for this motorcycle? or should the bike stop pretty quick using only the front brakes?
Let me know how your bike stops using only the front brakes...

Thanks.

toycollector10 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 24, 2006, 07:06:30 PM »

It's my understanding that 70 percent of braking should be done with the front and 30 percent with the rear.

My front brake is very poor. I found a deserted bit of road and put down markers and really got to know just how far I could go with brake pressure doing 'panic stop' type tests. Just part of getting to know the bike and understanding how it handles.

These early Hondas had pretty crappy front brakes compared to what is normal today.

GroovieGhoulie · « **Reply #2 on:** April 24, 2006, 07:11:11 PM »

In the early '70s a bike magazine tested a 750K1 (or K2, can't recall) at the track against a 500 and 350. I have the article at home, but I remember the braking test:

The 750 From 60 MPH:

Back brake only: 260 feet and change with the tire locked, pouring smoke and the bike fishtailing the whole way. Wore a 6" strip of the tire flat. Modulating the brake to prevent lockup, (threshold braking), didn't haul down the machine from speed until 320 feet had passed. More than a football field. The testers were amazed. Said the back drum was powerful but hard to modulate and prone to lock.

Front brake only: 179 or so feet. No matter how hard they pulled on the lever, they could not get the front wheel to lock. It felt like it was giving 10/10ths braking, but it could maybe have given more if it was a bit stronger. It does prove however, that most braking is done on the front wheel. They said it was good for inexperienced riders because the front wheel was so hard to lock, a newbie was less likely to lock it in a panic stop.

Both brakes together: 131 feet and change. They said that the best, most successful way of stopping your 500 pounds of fun, is to use both brakes.

Bear in mind though that these ARE first-generation discs and as such, are not the most powerful in the world.

Noel · « **Reply #3 on:** April 24, 2006, 08:26:27 PM »

How do you know if you have good brakes? You don't have to ask yourself if you have good brakes.

An easier question is "How do you know if you have BAD brakes?". The answer is "If you own a stock SOHC Honda".

Rushoid · « **Reply #4 on:** April 24, 2006, 08:37:50 PM »

I have a stock '78 750F. This is the only bike I've ever ridden and I've only had it 2 months. I have never felt scared or out of control using both brakes with slightly aggresive riding. I'm sure newer bikes are a whole lot better but mine seem adequate. I'm a big boy ( just shy of 300lbs) and I can stop as quickly as I would expect. I just hope I'm not proven wrong anytime soon...

Noel · « **Reply #5 on:** April 24, 2006, 08:40:36 PM »

Quote

I'm sure newer bikes are a whole lot better but mine seem adequate.

"Adequate" is a good word for it, IMO, and the double disks on the 750F are the best of a sorry lot.

Do yourself a favor and stay away from modern bikes. 30 year old SOHC brakes are a lot better when you don't know how bad they are!

heffay · « **Reply #6 on:** April 24, 2006, 10:13:52 PM »

Quote from: toycollector10 on April 24, 2006, 07:06:30 PM

It's my understanding that 70 percent of braking should be done with the front and 30 percent with the rear.

My front brake is very poor. I found a deserted bit of road and put down markers and really got to know just how far I could go with brake pressure doing 'panic stop' type tests. Just part of getting to know the bike and understanding how it handles.

These early Hondas had pretty crappy front brakes compared to what is normal today.

tc~ it's been my understanding that the front brakes are normally 70% of the bike's stopping power while the rear is 30%. see the difference? anyone else like to get in on this debate?

ofreen · « **Reply #7 on:** April 24, 2006, 10:49:38 PM »

Quote from: heffay on April 24, 2006, 10:13:52 PM

tc~ it's been my understanding that the front brakes are normally 70% of the bike's stopping power while the rear is 30%. see the difference? anyone else like to get in on this debate?

It really depends on the bike. If you are doing full performance braking resulting in a stoppie on your R1, 100% of the braking is at the front. Doing the same thing on your Valkyrie will be somewhat less than that. The ratio depends on the amount of weight transfer to the front during the stop, traction available, mechanical capability of the brakes, etc.

nomadwarmachine · « **Reply #8 on:** April 24, 2006, 11:00:04 PM »

Sounds like your brakes could use some work. Start with a full flush and bleed all the air out. If you still have squishiness or leaking at the handle, you will want to rebuild the master cylinder. It probably would not hurt to clean the caliper and replace the seal there as well. If you still have limited braking capacity, I would recommend swapping the 30-year old lines out for stainless steel braided lines, which can be had from HEL Performance for cheap. I did all of these things to my CB750K2 and was able to lock up the front wheel pretty easily.

If you still have crappy brakes, you own a SOHC4!

TwoTired · « **Reply #9 on:** April 24, 2006, 11:58:11 PM »

I have always believed that proper riding technique was to use both front and rear brakes in unison. The laws of physics demand that two tires making friction contact with the pavement will grab the street more than a single tire can.

If your habit is to use both in unison, when an emergency occurs you will not have a fraction of a second to learn how the two can be co-ordinated. Some pain can be avoided by developing this skill beforehand.

If you are using just the front or just the rear brake, you are asking for a hospital stay.

My Cb550 with it's single front disk, while more effective than the rear, never had much risk of locking the front tire. That is until I put on the Stainless Steel lines. Now, I can squeal the front tire before the lever hits the grip.

Also, if you are in the habit of using two fingers for the front brake on this style bike, you won't have braking power when you need it most. You need all your fingers for best braking. Make that your habit. Or, live dangerously, your choice.

Cheers,

lassenc · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2006, 03:39:19 AM »

I good mod for the brake is a modern mastercylinder, combined with SS hoses, it could get rather effective I believe

SteveD CB500F · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2006, 05:24:50 AM »

I'm with TT on this.

After a full rebuild of the front caliper and new fluid (no braided line though), I can squeal my front tyre on most good tarmac surfaces

theunrulychef · « **Reply #12 on:** April 25, 2006, 05:39:09 AM »

Yep, use both brakes always to stay alive. If you haven't already, & not sure where you're located, I highly recommend taking one of the rider safety courses offered in most states. I had been riding only a year when I took it, and I'm still no expert, but I learned alot about braking & slow speed riding. I was already in the habit of using both brakes, but they helped me to stop locking up the rear as much in panic stops (almost an everyday occurance in Philly traffic).

Once I'm done putting my bike back together with new pads, ss lines & rebuilt MCs, I fully intend to go test them out in a nice quiet parking lot. If you're not sure about your brakes, maybe you could do the same. Then, alter your riding style, knowing approximately how much room you have to stop.

One of the instructors at the MSF course I took told us about an old Harley guy that had been riding for years & years using only his rear brake. The instructor apparently asked him if he'd ever hit anything & the guy replied "sometimes."

ProTeal55 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 25, 2006, 06:50:59 AM »

1. Do a dual-disc setup with two rebuilt calipers.
2. Have the rotors cross-drilled
3. Run all new stainless brained lines, these wont expand under braking pressure.
4. Run a modern master cyllinder to get the most bang 4 your buck

Get everything done, then go ride your buddies newer GSXR 1000 and realize your brakes still suck

brockj · « **Reply #14 on:** April 25, 2006, 07:17:39 AM »

Quote from: theunrulychef on April 25, 2006, 05:39:09 AM

Yep, use both brakes always to stay alive. If you haven't already, & not sure where you're located, I highly recommend taking one of the rider safety courses offered in most states. I had been riding only a year when I took it, and I'm still no expert, but I learned alot about braking & slow speed riding. I was already in the habit of using both brakes, but they helped me to stop locking up the rear as much in panic stops (almost an everyday occurance in Philly traffic).

Once I'm done putting my bike back together with new pads, ss lines & rebuilt MCs, I fully intend to go test them out in a nice quiet parking lot. If you're not sure about your brakes, maybe you could do the same. Then, alter your riding style, knowing approximately how much room you have to stop.

One of the instructors at the MSF course I took told us about an old Harley guy that had been riding for years & years using only his rear brake. The instructor apparently asked him if he'd ever hit anything & the guy replied "sometimes."

Took my MSF course this past weekend!! Great course highly recommended. During the course you do cover alot on braking and slow speed riding (considering they don't really let you get much over 15 mph). Always use both brakes when stopping! I will use only me rear when I am trying to just slow down a little.

crazypj · « **Reply #15 on:** April 25, 2006, 08:40:42 AM »

On a 550 you can use 100% front brake with a dual disc set up. The rear doesnt work when the wheel is in the air

. The forks are a major weak spot if you ride reasonably fast as they will flex enough to have the front mudguard hit the pipes under heavy breaking . The 750 is even worse as its a lot heavier, CB750 F2 probably flexiest fork bike I've ever ridden, you could see where the wiper had completely missed a 2" section at front of fork, a definate line where there was contact at rear.

PJ

eldar · « **Reply #16 on:** April 25, 2006, 09:37:55 AM »

Guess I never thought my brakes were that bad. Sure I cant stand the bilke up on the front tire but then why would I want to? Never had the brakes let me down ever. Sure they might not be quite asgood a modern ride but then we dont have the amount of performance they do either. I did switch to an ss line as mine was the original from 1977. So I am sure that will help and I will probably drill my rotor which will help and drop weight. Other than that, I doubt I will do much more.

crazypj · « **Reply #17 on:** April 25, 2006, 09:43:34 AM »

Quote from: eldar, Master of the K8 Thunder! on April 25, 2006, 09:37:55 AM

Guess I never thought my brakes were that bad. Sure I cant stand the bilke up on the front tire but then why would I want to? Never had the brakes let me down ever. Sure they might not be quite asgood a modern ride but then we dont have the amount of performance they do either. I did switch to an ss line as mine was the original from 1977. So I am sure that will help and I will probably drill my rotor which will help and drop weight. Other than that, I doubt I will do much more.

Got a bit carried away , The Late model twin piston brakes are real good, better than the forks can handle is what I meant.

PJ

eldar · « **Reply #18 on:** April 25, 2006, 09:50:26 AM »

That is certainly true. There are a couple people here who took a later cb750 dohc caliper with dual pucks and mounted it. Course it was on an F3 fork I think.

ofreen · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2006, 01:18:59 PM »

Quote from: eldar, Master of the K8 Thunder! on April 25, 2006, 09:37:55 AM

Guess I never thought my brakes were that bad. Sure I cant stand the bilke up on the front tire but then why would I want to? Never had the brakes let me down ever. Sure they might not be quite asgood a modern ride but then we dont have the amount of performance they do either...

Consider the difference between being able to go 60 to 0 mph in 120 feet instead of 130. That 10 feet could make the difference between having a collision and ruining your day, or only having an adrenaline moment, then proceeding on your merry way.

eldar · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2006, 01:34:42 PM »

Maybe so but that could be said on any vehicle that is moving. The only way to be sure is to be able to stop on a dime. Not much difference between 130 and 120 ft. Sure todays bikes have better brakes but they have better everything and so most people end up driving faster and thus needing the same distance to stop anyways. While me on my 750 realize it is an older machine and as such do not push it like a nut and expect top line performance.

78_SaltLick · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2006, 03:08:07 PM »

One thing i found interesting was that if you lock up the back wheel DONT let up on it til you fully stop, if you do your back will flip up in the air. Our teacher demonstrated this to us, it would be a natural response to let up on the back brake if you locked it up and started fish tailing, or at least i thought.

cb650 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 25, 2006, 03:25:34 PM »

You will only flip if you lockup and it gets sideways when you let up.
Practice and control is the key. You have to react then think.

Terry

nickjtc · « **Reply #23 on:** July 18, 2006, 01:00:09 PM »

If you guys think that sohc brakes are less than stellar, go for a ride on a drum-braked Norton Commando. The braking decisions are then made two or three blocks ahead of where you plan to stop!

At risk of sounding like a safety-crat (having been a riding instructor) I'm a great believer in scanning as far ahead as possible so that sphincter puckering situations are kept to a minimum.

As to the brakes on the 650: they are adequate for my style of riding as is, but a stainless brake line is in the future, along with a system overhaul.

On that note, does anyone know of a supplier of new front brake fluid reservoirs? Mine is looking pretty dried out and crazed. Thanks in advance.

botheras · « **Reply #24 on:** July 18, 2006, 01:34:53 PM »

Another piece of good advice for heavy braking is settle the front end first before really braking hard. That way you don't get form bounce as you bottom out... But as others have said these are 70's brakes for 70's tyres. Drive 'em that way. In those days my car wouldn't cruise much over 55-60. Nowadays it would take 90 easy

apormarkos · « **Reply #25 on:** July 18, 2006, 03:20:54 PM »

Quote from: nickjtc on July 18, 2006, 01:00:09 PM

At risk of sounding like a safety-crat (having been a riding instructor) I'm a great believer in scanning as far ahead as possible so that sphincter puckering situations are kept to a minimum.

that's good advice in or on any vehicle, and very well put i might add.
apor

red91sit · « **Reply #26 on:** July 18, 2006, 03:26:56 PM »

Anyone have any complaints with the CB-400F's brakes? They work more than good enough for me

botheras · « **Reply #27 on:** July 19, 2006, 06:24:52 AM »

Quote from: red91sit on July 18, 2006, 03:26:56 PM

Anyone have any complaints with the CB-400F's brakes? They work more than good enough for me

So you never go above 30mph then....

By modern standards all the SOHC brakes are cr*p, but for real buttock clenching, try the SLS CD175 brakes... Oh, sheeeeeite.

Larry

Essex UK

eldar · « **Reply #28 on:** July 19, 2006, 06:49:28 AM »

there are a lot of bikes with worse brakes than what we have. As others have mentioned, we could have drum brakes on the front. Think about that for a moment. I know how people, even me have said todays bikes are better. Well in the case of rockets, they are much lighter. A lighter object is quicker and easier to stop at any speed than a heavier object. Even the cruisers that are as heavy as our bikes, stop better. But then they have dual calipers with dual pucks in most cases. You put on a newer model fork, IF you can fit one, and you will stop very well also.

Everyone here just has tp remember that we are on technology that is 30+ years old. Of course it is not going to be as good as what is around now. My bike with its single disk, still stops me pretty good, especially once I get my new rubber diaphragm and plastic ring, which got cracked and lets in air.

Noel · « **Reply #29 on:** July 19, 2006, 10:06:21 AM »

I knew my single front disk wasn't the greatest, but I felt that it was at least adequate.

Then I switched to the double disk set-up and I can't believe I managed with that single disk.

Of course, if I borrowed my neighbor's SP1 I'm sure I would decide that my current set-up is unacceptable. $:-\$

Bodi · « **Reply #30 on:** July 20, 2006, 11:01:16 AM »

There's nothing wrong with drum brakes for street riding. My CB77 with double-leading shoes will skid the front wheel - until it gets hot and mushy which tells me I'm outriding the bike.
There's nothing wrong with SOHC4 disk brakes either. Current squid bikes are really racing machines, a street bike doesn't have any realistic need for the brakes they have.
Modern bikes have better tires, chassis, brakes, engines, everything. So what? There's no point in comparing them if you want to ride an antique.
The single disk on the 400F will stop the bike as fast as the tire will allow; I can balance between howling and slipping from 70MPH to full stop with the back drum doing a lot as well. I don't think catapulting over the handlebars is a more effective way of deceleratring so I don't bemoan the inability to pull stoppies.

eldar · « **Reply #31 on:** July 20, 2006, 11:06:42 AM »

My point exactly. I stop well enough. Could it be better, in terms of overall power? Sure but is it going to be usable power?
Of the rockets out there, how many use 100% of stopping power EVER in their lives? I bet less than half that are ridden. In many cases, using 100% stopping on these would send a person over the bars. How is that going to help you. A controlled stop os better than a hang-on-and-try-not-to-drop-the-bike-because-of-too-much-braking-power-stop.

hevykevy420 · « **Reply #32 on:** July 20, 2006, 11:56:47 AM »

My problem is that the PO of my bike had extended forks and bigger handlebars so he had an extension in the brake line. I coudn't get rid of the extension when i converted back to stock length forks because i'm still using the handlebars.

Not only is my brake line 20+ years old, now it is 20+years too old and a foot too long

I have a feeling that is affecting brake performance... $:-\$

My bigger problem is reminding myself that everyone around me can stop quicker than my CB, especially when travelling the same roads I tackle with an RC51 that is fully capable of launching a rider during a panic stop. Trust me, that f$%&$R threw me superman style over a guard rail.

eldar · « **Reply #33 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:47:03 PM »

Well just measure the line you have and call helusa and get a line made for your bike with that length. braided line just the right length for $50 including shipping!

hevykevy420 · « **Reply #34 on:** July 21, 2006, 06:50:19 AM »

Ordering right now...

eldar · « **Reply #35 on:** July 21, 2006, 07:16:38 AM »

I got amazing service from these guys. Emails on the whole thing. I even got a call when the guy had a couple of questions! How many places do that? Most just assume and do whatever. Next line I need for ANY bike will come from HELUSA.

Forgot to mention that the HEL lines are thinner than any other line I have seen as in smaller diameter but feel just as strong.

750k5 · « **Reply #36 on:** July 21, 2006, 08:57:33 AM »

I have been riding for nearly 35 years, on alot of different bikes, none of which came with only a front or rear brake, the idea is to use BOTH. All my old bikes, beit Norton, Triumph Kawasaki, or Harley, have inferior brakes compared to today's rides. when riding with guys on the newer bikes, you have to remember that they do have better systems, so you have to adjust to that, and remember what you are riding...

News:

Author Topic: How do you know if you have good brakes? (Read 5431 times)

hawkman

theunrulychef

brockj

eldar

eldar

eldar

botheras

apormarkos

red91sit

botheras

eldar

eldar

eldar

eldar

750k5