Topic: Re: CB550 Cafe Racer "Four Claws" Build (Re-jetting Progress, a few questions)

[Elniniomuchachos]

Hey guys (again),

I've been at this build for about a year now, it has been pretty slow because of lack of money, school, and life. I started out like everyone else... When I was 16 I saw a 76' CB550 with those 4-4 pipes and the clean retro styling and new I would be taking a road trip on one. I searched Craigs-list for about 7 months and found a set of decent project bikes and picked them up for $750 (4 Bikes!!!). I tore them all down and started to pick the best parts out of the bunch. I chose the 77 F engine, since it had
only 8,000 miles on it. I also decided I liked the 76 frame better, also because this was the frame with the best title situation. I did a basic clean up of the top end, new gaskets, painted the cylinder block and what not. I did the usual cafe smudges, cutting off tabs and making the frame look better? or worse... I welded some gussets in the triangle area, and had the frame,swing-arm and some other bits powder-coated a  very low gloss black. Once I got the frame back I slapped the engine in and began
to work up. Put new bushings in the swingarm, sanded and painted the exhaust since it had a fair amount of surface rust. I've got the wiring pretty much all taken care of, I did a custom wiring set up, similar to the santee chopper wiring diagram. I ordered my tires yesterday(Bridgestone spitfires) and will probably pick up tubes and rim strips at the local shop.
 
Since being on this forum I have learned so much great knowledge that has helped me get through this build. But I'm finished with school and have been working on this thing pretty much non-stop the last couple months. I've knocked a bunch of stuff out of the way, and finally got her started earlier this week. BUT... Here's my problem,She seems to run alright since I put the 4-4 back on. But there is a knocking sound coming from the top end, it sounds like the tappets? Or possibly something with the cam chain.
(Note : I have set the clearance for the tappets and the timing, but have NOT adjusted the cam chain.) Also pipes 3&4 are much cooler than 1&2 (I can keep my hand on both, but burns on 1&2), and I noticed that there was some smoke? coming from either the #1 or #2 cylinder (not the from the back of the pipe, actually up near the actual cylinder. . . I went through the carbs multiple times, once just two days ago to double clean the jet holes, and re-set the floats. So, I was wondering if there are any SOHC4 members down here in sizzling Phoenix,AZ that would be down to help me figure this thing out. I am planning on doing a road trip with this bike once
it is complete, and would like it to be finished sooner than later so I can get it reliable and on the road as fast as possible.

I would post pics in here, but I have forgotten my Flickr account password...

But you can check out my blog - http://thewardincentive.tumblr.com/

[cwchan]

. . BUT... Here's my problem,She seems to run alright since I put the 4-4 back on. But there is a knocking sound coming from the top end, it sounds like the tappets? Or possibly something with the cam chain.
(Note : I have set the clearance for the tappets and the timing, but have NOT adjusted the cam chain.) Also pipes 3&4 are much cooler than 1&2 (I can keep my hand on both, but burns on 1&2), and I noticed that there was some smoke? coming from either the #1 or #2 cylinder (not the from the back of the pipe, actually up near the actual cylinder. . . I it is

But you can check out my blog - http://thewardincentive.tumblr.com/

Someone correct me i am wrong but i believe you should adjust the cam chain prior to valve tappet clearance & timing

[bonhomechristopher]

This is exactly the same thing that was happening to me!!!!!   It took me forever to figure out what was wrong.  I adjusted the valve clearances, the cam chain and even checked out the coils and wires.  Turns out my problem was caused by the wrong wiring configuration.  Being my first bike I didn't catch it like I should have.  Someone had wired my first coil to cylinders 1&3 and my second coil to cylinders 2&4.  The sparking units on the cb fours actually spark two cylinders at the same time but one of them is on the exhaust stroke so nothing happens.  Since cylinders 1&4 are at top dead center (TDC) at the same time the first coil should be routed to the spark plugs of 1&4.  One spark fires the cylinder on the compression stroke and the other spark does nothing.  Same with 2&3.  they are both at TDC when coil number two fires so that coil should be routed to the spark plugs of 2&3.  Hope this helps.   Summary:  left coil (#1) fires 1&4.  right coil (#2) fires 2&3.  When I got the right wiring my cb 650 fired right up and ran on all four but I found out I had oil leaking down from my head.     Good luck!  Looks like an awesome bike!!

. . BUT... Here's my problem,She seems to run alright since I put the 4-4 back on. But there is a knocking sound coming from the top end, it sounds like the tappets? Or possibly something with the cam chain.
(Note : I have set the clearance for the tappets and the timing, but have NOT adjusted the cam chain.) Also pipes 3&4 are much cooler than 1&2 (I can keep my hand on both, but burns on 1&2), and I noticed that there was some smoke? coming from either the #1 or #2 cylinder (not the from the back of the pipe, actually up near the actual cylinder. . . I it is

But you can check out my blog - http://thewardincentive.tumblr.com/

Someone correct me i am wrong but i believe you should adjust the cam chain prior to valve tappet clearance & timing

I adjusted my cam chain tension after adjusting the valve clearances because that is the order that my service manual had it in.  Maybe I am talking about something else....

[Elniniomuchachos]

That's exactly what I did. My manual (the cb500-cb550 workshop manual) shows adjusting the cam chain after. I think I may have bent valves, I am searching to find the correct compression test adapter that will fit the smaller spark plug threads. If I do have bent valves, I have a few other cylinder heads that I could choose from. I also found a small oil leak coming from the #3 and #4 cylinders. Maybe it just requires a re-torquing ? My oil cooler seems to be working But I need to change the placement of the cooler hoses.

[Elniniomuchachos]

No other input or suggestions for my problem?

[bonhomechristopher]

If you have an oil leak it could be the valve SEALS.  I think that is the problem with mine.  I ordered a new cylinder head anyway because someone stripped out a few threads on this one.  But yeah,  the only thing I can think of is your wiring.  did you check your spark for each side?  Also check your plugs for deposits or other junk.

[Elniniomuchachos]

The spark is fine on all cylinders, the wiring is all good, double checked multiple times. I'm going to go pick up an adapter for my compression tester today, If there's low compression on 3 and 4 I'm guessing there's a very high chance of bent valves. I'll just swap it out with another head I have laying around. I'm also hearing a small "hiss" when I crank the engine over with a wrench and the ignition turned off. It isn't the carbs sucking air, it is something different.

[Elniniomuchachos]

Alright, so I did a compression test and all the cylinders are within 10% of each other. #1=100 #2=90 #3=100 #4=95... So I guess that rules out bent valves???

I'm starting to think that I may have a carb problem. Maybe 3 and 4 are having a tough time getting fuel. I will have to double check.
I know I am getting spark on all cylinders, but could 3 and 4 be having weak spark?

Thanks for the suggestions, I need this bike running

[Elniniomuchachos]

Ok. So I got her running on all four. (It was a carb problem. Floats were installed upside down, if that's easy to believe..., and and there was dirt in the holes that transfer the fuel.) But she is making popping sounds sometimes and almost seems like a miss? I did the rough timing deal, I'm waiting to get a timing light from a friend. Also there is an oil leak between 3 and 4. I'm guessing maybe I need to re-torque or some of those pucks are leaking.
So I figure I take the head off and do all of that, and double check that the valves are seating nice and tight.

Any other Ideas?

[articblue]

Did you sync the carbs? That'll cause the popping sounds, especially if you throttling up and down.
Due to the vacuum pull on the carbs being diferent (not synced) more fuel or less gets pulled in and then on the exhaust stroke when it should've already combusted any fuel and it's puting that redundent spark into the cylinders it's partially combusting some extra fuel.

[bonhomechristopher]

Haha oh wow!  sometimes it is the stupid little things we don't catch!  I honestly don't know how someone could install the floats upside down though.  Wiring, slightly understandable.  Good to hear it runs well now!  Did you give your carbs a thorough cleaning?  When using carb cleaner make sure you don't apply it to the seals as they will eventually disintegrate.  I almost melted the bottom out of a plastic cup with that stuff!

[Elniniomuchachos]

Yeah I had originally soaked the carbs for about 3 days in hot water mixed with half simple green. I'm using the later 77 PD carbs, and pretty much re-assembled them from memory because I couldn't find any images. I did use the blow out diagram from some site that sells the rebuild kits. But it was hard to tell which way was up and down. I haven't done a REAL carb sync yet, I don't have 80 bucks to shove out for the decent set of gauges.
Any body in the Phoenix area have  the synchronization tool that I can borrow?

I was trying to get as many things done today as I can, So while my battery was charging I got my fuel tank out and a big case of "Evaporust" and went to work. I put a two foot linked chain inside and Filled it with warm water and about a cup of the evaporust. Gave it intense shaking for about 10 minutes, then let it sit for an hour. Poured out this mixture, and then poured in the rest of the whole evaporust container, no water. I let this sit for about 5 hour with shaking in between. I looked inside and it is looking pretty good, the rust is free moving, so I poured out the Evaporust back into the container for later use. Rinsed the tank with hot water a couple times and it looked even better, though there are still some patches up near the can "lid". I decided that I will put the Evaporust back in for the rest of tonight and give it a  good shaking in the morning. I have read that this Evaporust supposedly leaves a "seal" or lining in the tanks, so I don't need to put oil or anything in, if I am not putting gasoline in right away.
As for the paint on the tank, I plan on stripping it with that "Aircraft paint remover" and taking sand paper and brushing the metal so it looks real nice, then I am going to paint a black stripe down the right side where the inlet port is. I thought of doing a wwII pinup girl as well, But figured simplicity is best.

I have a cigarette lighter wired, for the cell phone, so I need to make a bracket that will mount below the tach and speedo.


The next big step is trying to fix this oil leak. I thought it was a pretty slow leak at first, but I had the bike idle for a couple minutes and it started dripping pretty good. So I am thinking maybe another good re- torque may fix this? Or maybe the oil passage O rings are leaking?

My tires are supposed to arrive this week, I ordered the Bridgestone Spitfires, So I am getting pretty excited. I'm going to pick up rim strips and tubes from the local bike shop.

This bike needs to be done within the next two weeks with all of the dmv business done as well, if that is possible...
So I really appreciate everyone's help and ideas,

[Retro Rocket]

But she is making popping sounds sometimes and almost seems like a miss?

Welcome to the wonderful world of pods..!!  Emgo pods are cheap crap and you will probably never get rid of the "popping" until you either throw them in the bin and put an airbox on or try K&N pods, at least the K&N's  have velocity stacks....

[Elniniomuchachos]

Well I have been running the bike without the air filters for now. (It's just in my garage for testing.) I have been thinking about picking up the k&n filters, I ordered the pods because of lack of money, but that has changed, and am thinking about performance and reliability over price.

[Elniniomuchachos]

Alright, So I tried to fix this oil leak by re torquing those 14 bolts and I managed to break the 10mm bolt on the front of the engine that goes through the head and the cylinder block. I am trying to drill into the bolt with an extra long 1/8 inch drill bit to back it out, but it keeps moving into the walls of the block. I'm seriously about to explode...

[bonhomechristopher]

Sometimes you just have to take a break and relax.  Do something else, your mind will work on the problem.  Hang in there!!  I am at a stand still as well. 

[Elniniomuchachos]

Yeah, I ordered a new headgasket so I figured I would wait it out until that arrives. Once that gets here I figure it out. For the mean time, I got my new tires mounted, so I can get some other stuff completed.

[Elniniomuchachos]

Update :  Took the cylinder block to a machine shop, they got the bolt out. I'm assembling the engine now, have a question. My dad asked me if I knew if the nuts needed torqued down in increments. (not the 123456789... , but rather like when you torque down a wheel on a car, you slowly go around until they are all tight.) Should I do this or just torque them all to spec. in the shop manual order?

[bonhomechristopher]

I torqued my head bolts to about half the recommended setting and then torqued it about half way again.  Then I tightened them to the right setting.  Maybe I was too careful, but there are only fifteen bolts, so it doesn't take too long (the little bolts on the front and rear of the cylinder head I just finger tightened and then after I had done all the other bolts I torqued them down).  For the valve cover, since there are so many little bolts, I just tightened about half way and then tightened them all the way.  Since they are so small and I didn't know the torque setting, I just hand tightened them about equally.  I don't think torque matters too much for the valve cover since it has a rubber seal.  Just don't strip them!!  I may be wrong.

[Elniniomuchachos]

I torqued my head bolts to about half the recommended setting and then torqued it about half way again.  Then I tightened them to the right setting.  Maybe I was too careful, but there are only fifteen bolts, so it doesn't take too long (the little bolts on the front and rear of the cylinder head I just finger tightened and then after I had done all the other bolts I torqued them down).  For the valve cover, since there are so many little bolts, I just tightened about half way and then tightened them all the way.  Since they are so small and I didn't know the torque setting, I just hand tightened them about equally.  I don't think torque matters too much for the valve cover since it has a rubber seal.  Just don't strip them!!  I may be wrong.

Yep that's what I did.  Except I went by 5's. And ended them all at a total of 15 lbs. I got her running last night and there are no leaks! I'm now working on the tank, I'm sanding it down for that brushed steel look, then I'm going to do a black stripe down the top where the fuel inlet is.

Here's a pic

http://www.flickr.com/photos/58837550@N02/5992748538/#in/photostream

[Elniniomuchachos]

Here's a quick update on my bike. The engine is running strong on all cylinders (at least for Idling and my little 1st gear put put.) and there are no leaks. There are still important things to do to it, But I am very close. I pulled an allnighter the other night working on it . I adjusted the clutch the night before last and in the morning I was all excited so I put just enough gas in the carbs to get my around my culdescack. This is my first "ride" on a street bike. I did notice some "backfiring" from the carbs. Which if I recall is from the pod filters and not having adjusted for them. I am thinking about going with another source of filter. Either the KandN or maybe one of those tintop long filters.



Needed for completion :

1. Find another lower steel brake line
2. Setup front brakes
3. Upholster seat
4. Fix electrical "imperfections"
5. Tuning

[scottly]

Sounds good to me! Get a fuel tank on it, so you know the carbs are being fed with a proper fuel supply before attempting any fine tuning.

[Elniniomuchachos]

I did just that yesterday  . Was having a fuel line issue, but I fixed it. Since I'm running the 77 Pd carbs with a 76 tank, there was an issue with the two fuel lines from the tank meeting up with the one line to go to the carb inlet. I just blocked off on spigot on the petcock using a little bit of fuel line and putting a large bolt in it for now. Got the lines all setup and the tank on... And I just couldn't resist. I took her out for a little neighborhood cruise yesterday afternoon. Now this is my first street bike and it is heaven!

Here is a video. I know there are multiple things wrong with the bike in the video, but It will all be squared away this week. I just wanted to have fun! and I did!

"Ridin' Durday" No license, insurance, or front brake. Haha.

[Elniniomuchachos]

I'm in the process of re-jetting and tuning for the carbs and pod filters. I'm running the PD46C's/EMGO Pods/stock 77' 4-4exhaust/stock ignition..I've gone from 115 mains and have worked my way down to 97.5's. The next step down are the 95's and the stock 90's. When I ran the stock 90's it had decent power throughout the whole RPM range, But ran even better with the pods covered with tape to restrict airflow. The bike ran decent in the stock configuration, but was running extremely lean and I didn't want to burn up the engine so I quit running it until I picked up larger jets. So here goes the list of how the bike ran with each jet setting.

-115's : Extremely rich, had to rev the engine up to 3k just to get out of first gear. NO power. Smelled of gas, didn't even need choke to start cold. Black smoke upon start up, with black plugs.  Needed to hold the throttle WO to even just accelerate.

-110's : Similar to the 115's but Just a tad better. still needed to over rev the engine to get moving in gear.

-105's : I noticed a change in idle, it was better, though it still took long to move down in the RPM range after rev'd a little. It would "Hover" in certain areas in idle. When riding it wouldn't want to go above 5k.  Still little power.

-100's : Much better Idle. Better throttle response. No "hovering" in idle.  Way better response going off the clutch from a stop into acceleration. Though it would still have a large flat spot around 4 k, and wouldn't go above6.5k

-97.5's : So I put the 97.5's in just for the hell of it tonight and there is a small improvement in all areas. Idle/ acceleration/ power. But the bike still just doesn't want to get up and go-go, let alone move above about 7k. I'm thinking that my timing could be off, and I need a good carb synch. I don't have a timing light as of now, but I do have the carb synchronize tool.

I noticed that my petcock is dripping, and over the past couple jet changes some of the bolts that hold the float bowls on have stripped causing leaks. I need to fix these problems before I move on. I don't want to end up burning my bike to the ground. I also need to get the front master cylinder working properly so I have front brakes and can do a full speed run. (I've been running up to about 45 +/- with just the rear brake.) Already had one near head on collision with a dumb -ass coming into the one way street, which was a funny experience.

But anyways. Just out of curiosity, do you guys think that I will end up going to the 95's? Note that I haven't pulled the plus yet for the 97.5's yet.

This is my first bike and mechanical project ever, and can use all of the help I can get. I've read the whole Pod thread, and found it very helpful. I got an idea of what was going to be in my future.

[Tintop]

I've got the 77 46A PD's on my 550.  One thing to check on these is the air hole that supplies atmospheric air pressue to the float bowls.  There is one on each carb.  They are not filtered, and if these get partially blocked it will cause jetting issues.  It is a poor design, and Honda changed it with the 46C's to a single air line, and joined the others together.