Topic: K1 shifting symptoms

[phil71]

Hi guys,  my K1, running 20w50 shifts like a dream (no, not the little 60's honda) when it's cold, but is kind of clunky when it's warm, and prone to false neutrals if you're not careful.
  I know at hotter temps the oil loses some viscosity, but I'm wondering if an additive could be of a benefit. Those lucas displays at auto part stores always generate an 'oohhh' factor in me, but I've hesitated, on the premise that, if it sticks to those gears like that, it probably also makes the oil filter less effective.
Great minds, educate me.
Thanks!

[wingman1946]

Not sure that this will be of any help but the neutral catch is kind of common with the CB 650. I had it but when I decided to change from a 16 tooth front sprocket to a 17 tooth it went away. Maybe it was the different pull of the motor with the new sprocket or maybe the reajustment of the chain required my the new sprocket???

[VTCBike750]

Im dealing with some warm shifting issues as well. Look into changing the countershaft bearing o-ring

[Spanner 1]

K1 what, Phil ??

[phil71]

Oops... 750

[scottly]

Try adjusting the clutch cable slightly tighter; less free-play at the hand lever.

[Spanner 1]

My K1 750 is clunky shifting even with a new cable.... kinda the nature of the beast, fine-tuning at the lever as Scottly suggests actually has an effect, given that your lower end adjustment is correct.... try that 

[HondaMan]

Hi guys,  my K1, running 20w50 shifts like a dream (no, not the little 60's honda) when it's cold, but is kind of clunky when it's warm, and prone to false neutrals if you're not careful.
  I know at hotter temps the oil loses some viscosity, but I'm wondering if an additive could be of a benefit. Those lucas displays at auto part stores always generate an 'oohhh' factor in me, but I've hesitated, on the premise that, if it sticks to those gears like that, it probably also makes the oil filter less effective.
Great minds, educate me.
Thanks!

I suggest avoiding the Lucas stuff: it is very high detergent, which can dissolve the goo that holds the corks on the clutch plates. The first one to let go will the top plate, if your K1 has the top plate with slanted cork blocks. Otherwise, it will be either the top plate or bottom plate, if all plates are square-cut. Just my experience. STP Oil Treatment has a similar effect.

You might check the type of 20w50 oil: several years ago, the U.S. EPA removed most zinc from the oils unless they were for Diesels, Motorcycles, or racing. So, the Castrol folks were kind enough to make theirs the "4T" type for bikes, which is both low detergent and has a bit more zinc than, say, their automotive oil, or Valvoline. Even at this, the 4T oil does not shift as well as it did before this change. I have REAL good shifting back with the synthetics: Mobil 1 has been the smoothest at 15w50 weight, but likes to leak out the cam cover. It made my tranny feel brand new, no neutrals, smooth as silk, in 500 miles with it. After 3 years, it started leaking at the cam cover, though.

[phil71]

Hondaman! That synthetic suggestion makes a ton of sense. I'll try the 15/50 for a bit. You know, it's not hard to ride, even warm, but you really gotta make sure you give a serious pull up with your boot, but when cold, you can blow on it and it'll catch the next gear without a hitch. Thank you!

[HondaMan]

Hondaman! That synthetic suggestion makes a ton of sense. I'll try the 15/50 for a bit. You know, it's not hard to ride, even warm, but you really gotta make sure you give a serious pull up with your boot, but when cold, you can blow on it and it'll catch the next gear without a hitch. Thank you!

If I could figure out a good way to keep the synthetic inside the engine, I'd run it always. I think the key in the end might be to find some zinc additive (maybe BG's EPC?) that can be added to normal motorcycle oils (low detergent), or diesel oils (also lower detergent, slightly more zinc to begin with). I REALLY miss the old Castrol XLR 20w50: that was THE BEST oil ever for the 750. Nothing else has ever come close. It was mineral-oil base, heavy on the zinc, almost no detergent, and so slippery that you couldn't get it off your hands without solvent. Ah, progress...

[wingman1946]

Quote from HondaMan
I suggest avoiding the Lucas stuff: it is very high detergent, which can dissolve the goo that holds the corks on the clutch plates. The first one to let go will the top plate, if your K1 has the top plate with slanted cork blocks. Otherwise, it will be either the top plate or bottom plate, if all plates are square-cut. Just my experience. STP Oil Treatment has a similar effect.

You might check the type of 20w50 oil: several years ago, the U.S. EPA removed most zinc from the oils unless they were for Diesels, Motorcycles, or racing. So, the Castrol folks were kind enough to make theirs the "4T" type for bikes, which is both low detergent and has a bit more zinc than, say, their automotive oil, or Valvoline. Even at this, the 4T oil does not shift as well as it did before this change. I have REAL good shifting back with the synthetics: Mobil 1 has been the smoothest at 15w50 weight, but likes to leak out the cam cover. It made my tranny feel brand new, no neutrals, smooth as silk, in 500 miles with it. After 3 years, it started leaking at the cam cover, though.
.................................................

HondaMan Are you saying you were using the Mobil 1 synthetic 15w50 in the late 70 early 80 Honda fours? I have told people I used it and they tell me I am nuts. I know it turned an 81 wing into a new bike in 1995. Unfortunately I traded it for a newer model in a couple years so didn't have the experience with the leaks.

[HondaMan]

Quote from HondaMan
I suggest avoiding the Lucas stuff: it is very high detergent, which can dissolve the goo that holds the corks on the clutch plates. The first one to let go will the top plate, if your K1 has the top plate with slanted cork blocks. Otherwise, it will be either the top plate or bottom plate, if all plates are square-cut. Just my experience. STP Oil Treatment has a similar effect.

You might check the type of 20w50 oil: several years ago, the U.S. EPA removed most zinc from the oils unless they were for Diesels, Motorcycles, or racing. So, the Castrol folks were kind enough to make theirs the "4T" type for bikes, which is both low detergent and has a bit more zinc than, say, their automotive oil, or Valvoline. Even at this, the 4T oil does not shift as well as it did before this change. I have REAL good shifting back with the synthetics: Mobil 1 has been the smoothest at 15w50 weight, but likes to leak out the cam cover. It made my tranny feel brand new, no neutrals, smooth as silk, in 500 miles with it. After 3 years, it started leaking at the cam cover, though.
.................................................

HondaMan Are you saying you were using the Mobil 1 synthetic 15w50 in the late 70 early 80 Honda fours? I have told people I used it and they tell me I am nuts. I know it turned an 81 wing into a new bike in 1995. Unfortunately I traded it for a newer model in a couple years so didn't have the experience with the leaks.

Yep, leaks and all...the 750 cam cover, in particular, has light sealing and small surfaces, as does the bottom edge of the alternator cover (both have to cope with lots of movement in the cases they mate to, so pressures are light). These are the first places that let the synth sneak out. It normally takes O-rings to hold it in, so the 500/550 and baby Four riders win that one. I think the '81 Wing was O-ring end-to-end, so it should have worked great in there.

[wingman1946]

HondaMan do you have any knowledge how the 81 CB650 might be effected?  I have been running the Castrol Actevo x-tra 4T 20w-50 part synthetic motorcycle oil for a couple months now with no ill effects so far.  I would love to put the Mobil 1 in there.

[Simpson]

Hondaman! That synthetic suggestion makes a ton of sense. I'll try the 15/50 for a bit. You know, it's not hard to ride, even warm, but you really gotta make sure you give a serious pull up with your boot, but when cold, you can blow on it and it'll catch the next gear without a hitch. Thank you!

If I could figure out a good way to keep the synthetic inside the engine, I'd run it always. I think the key in the end might be to find some zinc additive (maybe BG's EPC?) that can be added to normal motorcycle oils (low detergent), or diesel oils (also lower detergent, slightly more zinc to begin with). I REALLY miss the old Castrol XLR 20w50: that was THE BEST oil ever for the 750. Nothing else has ever come close. It was mineral-oil base, heavy on the zinc, almost no detergent, and so slippery that you couldn't get it off your hands without solvent. Ah, progress...

My experience precisely.
Few years ago a tested the full synthetic performance oils.
At first I was so happy!

-Shifted like butter, compared to mineral based oils
-Valve train and internal chains noise cut down by at least 50%
-Engine Revs faster and smoother

Unfortunately shortly after is started leaking from the valve and cylinder gaskets.

If only I could find a way to keep it from leaking, that would be my lubricant of choice.

Hondaman, would a light film of Yamabond or Dirko around the gaskets help during a top end rebuild?

[Simpson]

Hi guys,  my K1, running 20w50 shifts like a dream (no, not the little 60's honda) when it's cold, but is kind of clunky when it's warm, and prone to false neutrals if you're not careful.
  I know at hotter temps the oil loses some viscosity, but I'm wondering if an additive could be of a benefit. Those lucas displays at auto part stores always generate an 'oohhh' factor in me, but I've hesitated, on the premise that, if it sticks to those gears like that, it probably also makes the oil filter less effective.
Great minds, educate me.
Thanks!

BTW I have the same shifting challenges when my K0 and 360 on heat up.

[HondaMan]

Hondaman! That synthetic suggestion makes a ton of sense. I'll try the 15/50 for a bit. You know, it's not hard to ride, even warm, but you really gotta make sure you give a serious pull up with your boot, but when cold, you can blow on it and it'll catch the next gear without a hitch. Thank you!

If I could figure out a good way to keep the synthetic inside the engine, I'd run it always. I think the key in the end might be to find some zinc additive (maybe BG's EPC?) that can be added to normal motorcycle oils (low detergent), or diesel oils (also lower detergent, slightly more zinc to begin with). I REALLY miss the old Castrol XLR 20w50: that was THE BEST oil ever for the 750. Nothing else has ever come close. It was mineral-oil base, heavy on the zinc, almost no detergent, and so slippery that you couldn't get it off your hands without solvent. Ah, progress...

My experience precisely.
Few years ago a tested the full synthetic performance oils.
At first I was so happy!

-Shifted like butter, compared to mineral based oils
-Valve train and internal chains noise cut down by at least 50%
-Engine Revs faster and smoother

Unfortunately shortly after is started leaking from the valve and cylinder gaskets.

If only I could find a way to keep it from leaking, that would be my lubricant of choice.

Hondaman, would a light film of Yamabond or Dirko around the gaskets help during a top end rebuild?

We'll know if I get a chance to pull down my own engine this summer for its long-deserved new pistons (from Z1!) at 0.50 oversize. I'm going to reassemble it with aviation sealants on the alternator, base, and cam cover gaskets to see if it works better. But first, I'll have to break in the new pistons and bearings with normal oil, so it will be a while before I can try it.

[tylersilicate]

I have a '78 550k and I have the same problem as well.