Topic: piston coatings, are they worth it?

[wannabridin]

hello guru's.  i was wondering if piston coatings are worth it??  i was thinking of having cycleX do my 4th over pistons with it.  they offer the ceramic top coating and skirt coating for oil shedding for $129 for a set of 4 pistons.  i know this isn't a high hp motor, but i'm running about .010" decking for increased compression along with a fully balanced and slightly lightened reciprocating assembly.  also, would the rocker arms and shaft coatings be good? 

here's the link for the ad, bottom of the page:  http://cyclexchange.net/High%20Performance.htm

i figured for less than $250, this would be a good way to free up a LITTLE power and help the engine run a little better and cooler.  if you can't tell, i'm planning on overbuilding my motor because i can!   

thanks!

[Retro Rocket]

if you can't tell, i'm planning on overbuilding my motor because i can!   

Me too and i am getting piston tops done, {can't do skirts as bores are already done} and rockers and maybe a few more bits..... Piston coatings will reduce heat , so why not...

[mick7504]

I guess that at the end of the day mate, it has to be beneficial.

Simply thinking, less friction = less heat and vice versa.

The coated rocker shafts and rocker arm pads will be a plus along with Rob's (Voxonda) Ti adjustor nuts and I think that is a good step in the right direction.

Megacycle also offer a weld and grind service for the rocker arm pads.

Along with the coating and some of this stuff, you should be on a winner.

http://www.rogerstii.com/catalog/100_1728.jpg

[wannabridin]

I'm pretty sure you can coat the skirts even if the bores are already done.  This is what I've heard from others before...

And the hardweld is just TOO expensive mick!  I've looked this route, which is why a coating is a better deal to me...  And I def plan on using redline for the assembly lube!! 

Also, I asked Swain Tech for their recommendations, i believe they even have transmission coatings! 

[mick7504]

I'm pretty sure you can coat the skirts even if the bores are already done.   This is what I've heard from others before...

And the hardweld is just TOO expensive mick!  I've looked this route, which is why a coating is a better deal to me...  And I def plan on using redline for the assembly lube!! 

Also, I asked Swain Tech for their recommendations, i believe they even have transmission coatings! 

I don't know how many microns are in the coating, and calculating the final clearances is a necessity.
It may be fine in an iron bore, but firstly, I'd want to be 110% sure.

[Tintop]

I spoke to Ken regarding coating 550 rockers.  He said he can only do those that have not worn through the original finish.  Those need to be hard welded to get back to spec.  Mike is currently getting a set welded for me, and if my 2nd set are OK I will probably send them to Ken.

Regarding coating piston skirts.  If the cylinders are already bored to fit the pistons, adding a coating will decrease the clearance, and probably make things too tight. 

[kayaker43]

I used Kalgard coatings on everything in the late 70's. Skirt coatings don't need extra clearance. If properly applied they only add .0003 and it will burnish to fit. I've heard of people applying it much too heavy and having the motor tighten up and stop. After cooling and dissasembly no perceptible damage was found,.. talk about anti-seize!!. You don't coat the ring area so it leaves the ring/bore relationship unchanged.

The biggest problem with these coatings is that the moly separates from the carrier so badly that you need to mechanically stir with a drill before using. You can shake all day and then stir with a screwdriver and see there's a half inch of settled moly in the bottom. most people don't realize this and use it anyway. The result is a much too thick application of the clear carrier and too little moly. If it comes out glossy, you are doing it wrong.

When I do gearboxes, I always polish down buildup on shafts where there is a bearing fit and let the rest of it burnish to fit.

[wannabridin]

Ya I heard that the coatings are below the tolerances for piston to bore clearance, and this would cause no problems.  I believe that Swain coats the pistons at 0.0004" on the high side, unless you want a thick coating.

Thanks for the info on the rockers TT!  What are some indications of pad wear through the original finish?  Im pretty sure mine are in good enough condition, but I need to make sure! 

Also, thoughts on the oil shedding for the rods and rocker bodies?  I think the would help, even with the rocker shaft hold down chamfered holes drilled as HM recommends.

[Tintop]

Not sure if CycleX would agree, but the 4th one down would appear to be suspect in the photo here.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=85698.msg968917#msg968917

[wannabridin]

Thanks for that TT.  I think mine are quite fine!! 

Any thoughts on getting the cam lobes done as well?  With the same coating as the rocker arm pads...O

[Retro Rocket]

Ya I heard that the coatings are below the tolerances for piston to bore clearance,

I asked Mike Rieck and he said that mine was fine to coat the piston tops but not the skirts, my bore is aluminium with Nikasil coating....

[wannabridin]

I guess I just need to wait for Swain's recommendation...  Either way, I want the tops and bottoms/insides coated with the ceramic and oil shedding, along with the rods and rocker arms...

I think it's worth the money.  Not going to get a REALLY noticeable power increase on a street motor, but smoother running and better longevity is always a big plus!

[MCRider]

I had ALL (almost) my parts (cam, rockers, pins, cam bearings, chains, sprockets, pistons, transmission, etc) cryogenically treated. This is claimed to reduce friction and improve strength, without adding a coating which will eventually come off.

Little actual testing on either cryo or coatings I think, just lots of claims and anecdotal evidence. Car guys use Cryo on transmission a lot.  Readup.  Much cheaper than coating and as i say, can't come off and doesn't change any clearances.

Cryogenic Treatment of Engine Parts

http://www.nwcryo.com/motorsports.html

http://www.cryogenicsofindiana.com/

[mick7504]

DLC Coating is another process that has a wide variety of applications.
http://www.richterprecision.com/dlc-coatings.html

[MRieck]

I like piston coatings. I have had excellent results using Swain.....good people.

[kayaker43]

I like coatings too but there are a lot of ways to screw up using them. Bead blasting heads and cases brings with it a lot of potential for damage and should be taken very seriously. A few specs of abrasive trapped somewhere can do a lot of damage. its easy to trade a small gain for a big loss.

I think I believe in Cryo treating but all the wild claims are killing its credibility. That one link starts right off with dyno graphs showing big power gains,.. how does that happen The other claims 50-60% better durability and twice the wear.

If it were that easy no engines would ever blow up.

[MCRider]

I like coatings too but there are a lot of ways to screw up using them. Bead blasting heads and cases brings with it a lot of potential for damage and should be taken very seriously. A few specs of abrasive trapped somewhere can do a lot of damage. its easy to trade a small gain for a big loss.

I think I believe in Cryo treating but all the wild claims are killing its credibility. That one link starts right off with dyno graphs showing big power gains,.. how does that happen The other claims 50-60% better durability and twice the wear.

If it were that easy no engines would ever blow up.

I agree mostly. So I'll play the advocate. The HP gains can come 75% from the transmission. It is common knowledge transmission friction sucks the life from an engine. Some say 10% HP lost in the tranny. So if you can better that by half, you'll gain a lot. Any other gains are gravy.

The one drag race shop testimony on the Indiana site, has pretty easy proof. They would get 3 to 5 runs from a top fuel block between teardowns. With Cryo thats up to 15 runs.

But as i said, these are anecdotes and hard numbers hard to come by. Still... can't the same be said for coatings?

[MCRider]

Oh yeah, one more thing. Racing engines will always blow up. No matter what one does to make them last, that just means you run them harder and then boom.

[wannabridin]

Thanks for the cryo reminder Ron!!  I totally had a brain fart for that!  I def want to get the trans treated, along with any and all other parts i can!

Here's the reply from Swain in regards to coatings:

Garrett,

Thanks for writing.  Having the piston tops coated with our TBC and skirts
coated with PC-9 would be your #1 priority.  If it is a race motor you may
consider having us apply the TBC to the combustion chambers and exhaust
ports.  

Coating the valve train components will not help enough to justify the cost.
That motor does not turn enough RPM to really benefit from oil shedding
coatings and even if it did spin fast enough to benefit from oil shedding
coatings their benefit is so marginal they are usually reserved for the
highest levels of racing where cost is not a significant concern.  

[MRieck]

Thanks for the cryo reminder Ron!!  I totally had a brain fart for that!  I def want to get the trans treated, along with any and all other parts i can!

Here's the reply from Swain in regards to coatings:

Garrett,

Thanks for writing.  Having the piston tops coated with our TBC and skirts
coated with PC-9 would be your #1 priority. If it is a race motor you may
consider having us apply the TBC to the combustion chambers and exhaust
ports. 

Coating the valve train components will not help enough to justify the cost.
That motor does not turn enough RPM to really benefit from oil shedding
coatings and even if it did spin fast enough to benefit from oil shedding
coatings their benefit is so marginal they are usually reserved for the
highest levels of racing where cost is not a significant concern. 

That is what I do Garrett. I have had some stuff cyro aged....crank and rods....they never broke. I think it helps.

[wannabridin]

ya, i wanted to get my crank done as well as the rods.  also, def. want to get the entire trans done, kickstart shaft, and anything else i can think of!  ROn, i'll check out your thread again to see what all you had cryo'd, unless you have a "handy" list of what all you sent.  i'll just go ahead and send it up to you guy too!   

Mike, do you think the rods would be worth the slight bit of extra money to have cryo treated even tho you've already shot peened them?

[MCRider]

ya, i wanted to get my crank done as well as the rods.  also, def. want to get the entire trans done, kickstart shaft, and anything else i can think of!  ROn, i'll check out your thread again to see what all you had cryo'd, unless you have a "handy" list of what all you sent.  i'll just go ahead and send it up to you guy too!   

Mike, do you think the rods would be worth the slight bit of extra money to have cryo treated even tho you've already shot peened them?

I did not have my crank and rods done, as they wre already assembled when i stumbled across Cryo. I won't be making enough horsepower to threaten the crank, or the Crower rods, and there is no friction to speak of except the cam chaiin sprocket and the primary chain sprockets. Nor did i have the HD primary chains done as the schedule didn't permit. Other wise: top down: cam, rockers, pins, cam bearings, cam chain sprckt, cam chain, pistons, rings, pins, full tranny and most of the bearings, most of which are also new, shift forks, drum, kick shaft (also shot peened), clutch basket, hub, pressure plate, drive sprocket, rear sprocket, brake discs, ... and that's probably it.

[wannabridin]

I didn't think you could do bearings, as the seals could be damaged?  Thanks for that list, nice to know it can be done!  And the price is pretty darn cheap too!!

[MCRider]

I didn't think you could do bearings, as the seals could be damaged?  Thanks for that list, nice to know it can be done!  And the price is pretty darn cheap too!!

Most of the intereior tran bearings are not sealed. Even if they are, as long as the part is not moved, they Cryo them anyway. As in ORing chains are cryo'd. But always ask the tech first, and put them on the hook.

If you're going with Cryo of Indiana be sure you get hold of the guy first, don't just ship it there out of the blue. Inventory it for him and you, count the pieces. 

Once they got on my case, 3 separate lots, they each went smoothly. But it was difficult to get him on the phone, initially.

[wannabridin]

cool.  i'll give them a call and see about pricing.

Mike, where do you have your stuff treated? 

[Sam Green Racing]

http://www.swaintech.com/

Sam.

[Flying J]

I may give this a shot on my trans.
Do you think you can cryo treat after you have applied a coating or should i do the coating later?

[MCRider]

I may give this a shot on my trans.
Do you think you can cryo treat after you have applied a coating or should i do the coating later?

(Pardon me if I'm posting out of turn)
Ask your Cryo tech. My guess would be they would say, why?  My other guess would be, after. Since the coating is not part of the metal, it likely won't shrink and expand at the same rate and may break the bond. JMWAG.

I'd ask, can you coat a trans part? Its not on the Swain's price list. Would a coating stand up to the loads?

[Flying J]

Sorry, my post was confusing. I want to cryo my trans. I have pistons that are already coated. I have rockers that i need treated, I guess there really would be no point in doing cryo and a coating.

[MCRider]

Sorry, my post was confusing. I want to cryo my trans. I have pistons that are already coated. I have rockers that i need treated, I guess there really would be no point in doing cryo and a coating.

Makes sense now. Seems the coatings have specialized applications like the heat shielding and the oil shedding that Cryo can't do. I'm reading the Swaintech website for edumication.

[wannabridin]

i can ask the Swain tech guy that e-mailed me.  i'll get ahold of him and let you know what he says.

i think a good bet would be to have the rockers cryo treated and then do the coating on the pads.  this would help maximize strength and minimize friction, IMO.

but now that i think about it, i think coating the transmission would be able to handle stresses...

[mick7504]

Cyclex offer the transmission coating.
About half way down.
http://www.cyclexchange.net/Engine%20Parts%20Coating.htm

[Flying J]

So who do you think they are sending their parts out too?

[mick7504]

So who do you think they are sending their parts out too?

I think that the answer could be in Sam's reply #25.

[wannabridin]

From Swain tech:

Garrett,
 
We can coat the transmission gears and shafts.  It is rarely a high priority item as the long term benefits are not usually there.  The gears and shafts are usually hard enough that the surface profile achieved in the surface preparation process is limited which limits the adhesion of the coatings.  Initially you get good feel but over the long haul the transmission coatings do not tend to be as durable as coatings applied to parts which are soft enough to have the needed surface preparation such as a piston.  It would never hurt to have the parts coated but it is not likely to be a good long term proposition.  You may consider it if you are racing and looking for every little bit of help possible from coating.
 
Parts do need to be clean and fully disassembled.
 
Cryo is a good complementary process to our coatings.

[MCRider]

From Swain tech:

Garrett,
 
We can coat the transmission gears and shafts.  It is rarely a high priority item as the long term benefits are not usually there.  The gears and shafts are usually hard enough that the surface profile achieved in the surface preparation process is limited which limits the adhesion of the coatings.  Initially you get good feel but over the long haul the transmission coatings do not tend to be as durable as coatings applied to parts which are soft enough to have the needed surface preparation such as a piston.  It would never hurt to have the parts coated but it is not likely to be a good long term proposition.  You may consider it if you are racing and looking for every little bit of help possible from coating.
 
Parts do need to be clean and fully disassembled.
 
Cryo is a good complementary process to our coatings.

That's a great response and confirms my suspicions. The coatings may be better on aluminum (cam bearings?) and serve different purposes at least in part, like heat shielding and oil shedding. On the trans, it will likely wear off, on a high mileage anticipated motor, not such good benefit. Cryo is forever.

On the trans, does not need disassembly for Cryo, even bearings can stay on and will benefit.

The last statement proves to me they are stand up guys. You've got to be realistic and honest with your customers when discussing a competing product/service.

[freedomgli]

I wouldn't do just the piston tops.  Have everything coated.  Remember thermal dynamics.  The total amount of heat in the combustion chamber is relatively constant and it doesn't all go out the exhaust port and exit via the exhaust system.  If you insulate the piston tops better than you might just be pushing the heat into the cylinder dome or the valves instead, shortening their life span as a result.

[Tintop]

Cycle X does offer a coating service for the combustion chamber, not sure about valves.  The intake would be cooled by the fuel charge.

[wannabridin]

I don't know if the combustion chambers would be worth it for shipping the head each way...  I mean aren't there quite a few people who just coated their pistons?  I mean just the tops and undersides would be worth it for helping to keep the heat where it needs to be right?

Oh ya, 2000th post, wooo!