Author Topic: Did a dyno run for fun on the CB550F  (Read 1729 times)

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Offline betterthanurs916

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Did a dyno run for fun on the CB550F
« on: July 18, 2011, 11:25:25 AM »
So I was on Auburn University's Formula SAE team for 5 years and never thought to stick one of my bikes on our chassis dyno.

It rained all last week, so I figured I would go ahead and play with it since I couldn't ride any.

The video and graph posted below are not from the same run, so you won't hear the dip around 3k that is on the graph.  I think the bike is lean down low?? I had to roll on the throttle before fully opening it at 5k or it would bog down really badly....thoughts?

CB550F stock dyno run

I know, I know. I probably shouldn't have clutched out and back in like that at such high load and RPM. I don't know what I was thinking.



In case you can't read the graph very well, 36.52 horsepower & 26.85 lbft torque.  Everything bone stock.
1977 CB550F2

Offline betterthanurs916

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Re: Did a dyno run for fun on the CB550F
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2011, 03:07:46 PM »
Bump...

Anyone got any thoughts on the stumble pulling out of low revs? Pilot jet? Main jet needle? Timing? etc..?
1977 CB550F2

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Did a dyno run for fun on the CB550F
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2011, 03:38:00 PM »
What is the status of the routine 3000 mile tune up checklist?

What do spark plug deposits tell you?

Have the carbs been vacuum synced.

Is the air filter new?  Or, older than one year?

What carbs are on the bike?  S/B 069A.

What air bleed screw setting are you using?

You should know that these mechanical slide carbs won't allow snap wide open of the throttle from low RPM.
When the slides are suddenly opened, carb throat vacuum is changed rapidly to that closer to atmospheric.  Since the differential pressure is what pushes the fuel through the carbs, the throat pressure change starves the engine of fuel even while plenty of air is available.  The engine wheezes without firing the scant mixture present in the chambers.

These carbs need an over rich mixture at idle to "pre-compensate" for sudden throttle opening.  Normally up to one half of total throttle travel is accepted (suddenly) with smooth power onset.

Later carbs were either C/V carbs, or accelerator pumps were added, to shoot raw gas into the carb throats when the slides were opened.  This allowed "throttle wailers" to position the control wherever they wanted and the engine would do the right thing, even if the operator didn't understand what was happening.  Even later, there is fuel injection and computers that translate rider wants to engine requirements, with no need for the rider to understand them.

Oh, by the way.  Nice bike.   ;D ;D ;D


Q abut the chart.  Did you shut off before red line was reached?  Or were you "saving" the engine?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline brewsky

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Re: Did a dyno run for fun on the CB550F
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2011, 04:23:14 PM »
Does the dyno have an A/F sniffer?
That's what will tell you the mixture.
66 CA77
78 550K
78 CB750K
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Offline fastbroshi

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Re: Did a dyno run for fun on the CB550F
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2011, 04:27:26 AM »
Are you in the engineering field?  I'm entering UT Arlington soon and what attracted me was their affiliation with FSAE.  Good luck with the tuning - and treasure that exhaust, they're hard to come by.
Just call me Timmaaaaay!!!

Offline betterthanurs916

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Re: Did a dyno run for fun on the CB550F
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2011, 02:18:39 AM »
To TwoTired...

Spark plugs look pretty happy, though I didn't do a chop.  Just a read after ride...so there could be something to be learned there.

No vacuum sync on the carbs recently...

Air filter is a foam element that has been in the bike.  I cleaned and oiled it recently.  Probably couldn't hurt to replace it as it's looking a little rough.

I actually don't know what version of carbs are on there off the top of my head.  I have no reason to believe that it would be anything else than the standard 069A that came on the F model

Bleed screws are set at about 1 3/4 turns

I understand the pressure differential issue that occurs when the slides are snapped open.  I guess what I'm sort of asking is if the factory setup off idle is tuned more for economy and standard drivability rather than maximum response.  If that is the case, then I'm happy to live with it...or at least try to compromise somewhere in the middle for the enrichment.

I guess I'm a little jaded by all the variability of new age fuel injection nonsense and didn't really think too hard about the tuning limitations of these simple carbs.  Our FSAE cars run dual stage injectors off of a Motec M800 and we always program a pretty healthy fuel enrichment for the acceleration compensation map.  I certainly understand the theory and practice of programmable EFI as I have probably spent several hundred hours over the past 5 years tuning base maps, timing maps, and all kinds of enrichment maps with Honda F4i's, Aprilia SXV550's, and most recently a Yamaha R6.  Being pretty unfamiliar with these carbs, I didn't think too hard about it and was hoping for a few tips on things to look at to improve the condition as much as possible without going overly-rich.  And I think I've got a decent list to go back over now.

I wish we had an O2 channel on the dyno, but we usually monitor that through the Motec as well...so we never saw a need for the extra expense for the expansion module.

I shut off at 9K because I knew it wasn't going to be making any more peak power beyond that point and I had just put the motor back together, so I thought I would be respectful and stay out of the red.  Nobody likes to get punched in the face as soon as they wake up from a peaceful rest, afterall...right?  That and I don't actually know the mechanical limit of the motor...so I was being cautious.
1977 CB550F2

Offline betterthanurs916

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Re: Did a dyno run for fun on the CB550F
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2011, 02:35:35 AM »
Are you in the engineering field?  I'm entering UT Arlington soon and what attracted me was their affiliation with FSAE.  Good luck with the tuning - and treasure that exhaust, they're hard to come by.

About to get out of Auburn as an ME.

I see that you're a bit older than I was when I started, are you going into an undergrad program or something else? Have you been working in the engineering field already or doing other things?  Regardless, I'm sure you can still have a good experience if you're looking to get involved.

UTA has quite a program in FSAE with lots of history.  Bob Woods, the faculty adviser, is a great guy who really loves what he does.  I envy the fact that you're about to have the potential to spend some time with such a great program.  Auburn doesn't have half the facilities that they do.  If you do get really involved, it's going to suck a lot sometimes, and you won't sleep very much...but it is definitely worth it in the end.  There's nothing like killing hundreds of hours designing and machining a system on the car, understanding it well enough to impress a design judge from one of the big 3, and then seeing it perform well on the track to the praise of your peers that were right there with you through the whole thing.  There's nothing quite as painful as seeing it go up in smoke during the last lap of the endurace race, either.  But it all comes out in the wash and you will be much better for it.

...and I certainly do treasure my nice exhaust.  I wish I had a less humid place to store the bike most of the time so I could ensure it's longevity.
1977 CB550F2

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Did a dyno run for fun on the CB550F
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2011, 10:46:00 AM »
No vacuum sync on the carbs recently...
If it needs it, you'll be happy with nicer idle smoothness.

Air filter is a foam element that has been in the bike.  I cleaned and oiled it recently.  Probably couldn't hurt to replace it as it's looking a little rough.

Bleed screws are set at about 1 3/4 turns

The foam filter presents less pressure differential across its membrane than the stock paper type.  This pressure change reaches all the way into the carb throat to the pilot circuit and throttle valve exit ports and slightly leans the mixture.  Another leaning effect would be the gas used, if it has ethanol, you are looking at yet another leaning cause.  (They also call this gas "oxygenated" because of the leaning effect.)
I am using the UNI NU4055 foam filter in my Cb550F bikes too, primarily for economic reasons.  (Cleaning and oiling is far cheaper than total replacement.)

The stock pilot screw setting is listed as 1 1/2 +/- 1/2 turn (using the stock paper filter).  You should see improved throttle twist response by closing the pilot screw to find the correct setting for the modifications that were made.   I think I arrived at 1 1/8 turn when the foam filter was used.  But, note that I am at sea level +100 to 300 ft, where oxygen is most plentiful in the atmosphere.
My last tune effort was when gas was all gas (no ethanol).
Lately, I've noticed a bit of hesitation at 3-4K RPM now that ethanol fuel is mandated here in California.  So, I'm probably due to change the pilot screw settings again to compensate for the ethanol.  The hesitation does seem to improve somewhat as I ascend into mountains and air gets "thinner".

I understand the pressure differential issue that occurs when the slides are snapped open.  I guess what I'm sort of asking is if the factory setup off idle is tuned more for economy and standard drivability rather than maximum response.  If that is the case, then I'm happy to live with it...or at least try to compromise somewhere in the middle for the enrichment.
I believe there was some compromise between the two.

By 77, Honda was getting "import allowance" pressure from the EPA.  It was the last year of production for this model.  The EPA was quite happy to trade power for economy (or less emissions at whatever the cost).  The exhaust has higher back pressure than prior K models, this allowed smaller mains; #98 rather than #100.  And the slide needle was lowered to further restrict fuel flow.  I do believe the stock F model was on the raggedy edge of lean at cruise throttle settings.  The new/later fuel certainly did not help that, and there is no "automatic compensator" for enrichment.
With the combination of air filter and gas changes, the bike may need to be altered with both a pilot circuit adjustment and lifting the slide needle a notch or changing the slide needle profile. (I don't have access to a dyno to put the fine edge on the tune.)

So far, I have only done the air bleed screw modification.  But, the F bikes were always good, quite possibly better than my 74 CB550 K with fuel economy.  I've not scrutinized with micro numbers, though.  The tell was how fast my wallet was emptied for fuel on a regular basis with commuter duty.

I shut off at 9K because I knew it wasn't going to be making any more peak power beyond that point and I had just put the motor back together, so I thought I would be respectful and stay out of the red.  Nobody likes to get punched in the face as soon as they wake up from a peaceful rest, afterall...right?  That and I don't actually know the mechanical limit of the motor...so I was being cautious.
If the engine was going though another break-in cycle, you were correct to be cautious.

If it had just been sleeping, a good slap in the face will just make it annoyed and roar at you.  They'll do 10K + some, before the valves start to float, or if the points have weak springs on them so they float.

You're right though, the power peaks are well before that, so not much information gained running up too high.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Did a dyno run for fun on the CB550F
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2011, 01:00:45 PM »
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Offline fastbroshi

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Re: Did a dyno run for fun on the CB550F
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2011, 03:05:20 PM »
Are you in the engineering field?  I'm entering UT Arlington soon and what attracted me was their affiliation with FSAE.  Good luck with the tuning - and treasure that exhaust, they're hard to come by.

About to get out of Auburn as an ME.

I see that you're a bit older than I was when I started, are you going into an undergrad program or something else? Have you been working in the engineering field already or doing other things?  Regardless, I'm sure you can still have a good experience if you're looking to get involved.

UTA has quite a program in FSAE with lots of history.  Bob Woods, the faculty adviser, is a great guy who really loves what he does.  I envy the fact that you're about to have the potential to spend some time with such a great program.  Auburn doesn't have half the facilities that they do.  If you do get really involved, it's going to suck a lot sometimes, and you won't sleep very much...but it is definitely worth it in the end.  There's nothing like killing hundreds of hours designing and machining a system on the car, understanding it well enough to impress a design judge from one of the big 3, and then seeing it perform well on the track to the praise of your peers that were right there with you through the whole thing.  There's nothing quite as painful as seeing it go up in smoke during the last lap of the endurace race, either.  But it all comes out in the wash and you will be much better for it.

...and I certainly do treasure my nice exhaust.  I wish I had a less humid place to store the bike most of the time so I could ensure it's longevity.
It looks like you did the right thing and went to college directly after high school.   Me on the other hand, that's another story.   But I know what I want to do now, so that's the important thing.   I'm actually looking into the undergraduate program for a BSME.   Oh and those exhausts, I don't think they're in as much danger of rotting as the old 4-4 systems were, but I wouldn't leave it sitting out in the rain either.   I think as long as you keep it dry and run it for longer than 5 minute trips to 7-11 it'll be ok.
Just call me Timmaaaaay!!!