Author Topic: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???  (Read 3554 times)

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Offline Lumbee

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Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« on: April 28, 2006, 07:27:58 AM »
I'm doing some research into making my own alchohol at home.  Looks like the only thing I'd need to do to get my 750 to run on it is put in bigger jets.  Thoughts on how well these old bikes would run on alcohol?
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Offline Gordon

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2006, 08:00:43 AM »
If you use alcohol don't you have to flush the engine with gasoline after each run to keep the acids from corroding the inside of the engine?  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2006, 08:24:02 AM »
From what I have read, in addition to opening jets, the compression should be increased to get the most out of it. There are also cold starting issues (not sure where you live) as alcohol doesn't vaporize as easily as gasoline. It can attack certain composite materials (rubber/plastic) as well if they were not engineered for this kind of environment. Are you doing this for cost or environmental reasons? Just curious to know how cost effective this would be as a do-it-yourself ethanol factory at home.  ??? Interesting though, keep us posted.
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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2006, 08:27:13 AM »
alcohol also generates more heat I think. So you would have to be very careful about that.

Offline Lumbee

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2006, 08:37:44 AM »
Eldar, from what I can tell its just the opposite, alcohol has a LOWER temperature at combustion, so its better for the engine, not to mention no carbon deposts to worry about in the combustion chamber...

...as far as it being cost effective, thats still the million dollar question...if I could make 3/4 gallons a week that would get me to work and back every day, so thats my goal.  from what i can tell the opening the jets is the only mod you'd really have to do.  as far as rubber/plastic, the carb bowl seals are the only thing i can think of that might be effected...
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Offline csendker

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2006, 09:15:03 AM »
The gas pumps in Buffalo typically have a sticker that reads "15% Ethonol", which I believe you can pump into most any vehicle on the road today.  You can buy new vehicles that are rated to handle up to 85% ethonol, different seals and such stuff. A guy I work with did this because he farms 800 acres of corn (hell of a hobby!) and has had similar thoughts.  Maybe the solution is a mixture?

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« Last Edit: April 28, 2006, 09:21:50 AM by csendker »
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2006, 09:48:50 AM »
You have to use more alcohol to get same power output, think its about 1/3~1/2 more so if you used to get 45mpg now you get about 30mpg for same power. Also, most air cooled alky burners had the cylinder fins removed to keep engine hot enough to run, takes a lot more heat to evaporate alcohol effectively. It also absorbs moisture from the air, not always a bad thing, steam powered vehicles ;D
runs really clean though
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Offline csendker

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2006, 09:58:08 AM »
Build your own home still --> http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id8.html
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2006, 10:07:24 AM »
Quote
not to mention no carbon deposts to worry about in the combustion chamber...

Actually it can do quite a "cleansing job" on an older motor. Best to keep an eye on this, particularly at first.
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Offline Lumbee

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2006, 11:03:53 AM »
Quote
not to mention no carbon deposts to worry about in the combustion chamber...

Actually it can do quite a "cleansing job" on an older motor. Best to keep an eye on this, particularly at first.

..yes, one post i read recommended watching the fuel filter and the plugs the first few miles as the alcohol washes all the crap out of the gas tank and combustion chamber...
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eldar

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2006, 11:21:46 AM »
this is why I run e-10 most of the time. Help keep things cleaner. Anything that keeps the engine cleaner is good in my book. Oil will last a bit better too.

Offline csendker

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2006, 11:49:27 AM »
Quote
Oil will last a bit better too.

I'm not exactly sure why, but the big three have historically recommended synthetic; if not a particular special synthetic oil, for their E85 vehicles.  I suspect it has something to do with the additional corrosiveness and moisture-absorbing characteristics of ethanol vs. gas.  I think at least one (Ford?) has dropped this requirement.
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Offline Lumbee

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2006, 11:59:22 AM »
Quote
'm not exactly sure why, but the big three have historically recommended synthetic; if not a particular special synthetic oil, for their E85 vehicles.  I suspect it has something to do with the additional corrosiveness and moisture-absorbing characteristics of ethanol vs. gas.

...or maybe they want to sell their oil!   ::)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2006, 02:01:36 PM »
Mostly reinforcing what others have said.  I looked into this technology pretty deeply some years ago. And then last year did some experimentation with a 50 cc motor converted to alcohol.

Alcohol has about 1/2 the energy contant as gasoline.  It is able to produce the same work output as gasoline.  But, it consumes twice as much fuel per volume.  Mileage, of course, suffers.
It is less volatile than gasoline, with a higher flash point temperature.  One of the reasons why it is mandated in some racing events.
Because of this property, engines can run with a higher compression ratio, with less concern about preignition and detonation.  This often yields much higher horsepower levels due to the higher compression ratio.

Alcohol actually burns cooler.  So, an air cooled engine conversion without a compression ratio change will burn cooler.  However, one of the attractive features of a water cooled motor is its stable operating temp, in that all the metal parts heat and expand to fit well together at a temp controlled by a thermostat.  Air cooled motors have a higher expansion variability range due to external temp variations and power output settings.  The point is during engine break in the pistons and cylinders, for example expand and wear in for that temperature "fit".  When the temperature changes more wear occurs while the metal finds a new relationship.

Converting an engine worn for fit at temperatures befitting gasoline heat out put, will incur more wear( or very sloppy fit) while operating on alcohol.  In other words, a new engine run only on alcohol out to last longer than a new engine running on gasoline due to the reduced metal expansion effects.

PJ made a good point about the cooling fins.  Hot engines are more efficient at fuel atomization than cooler ones.  Simple conversions of air cooled motors are not as efficient unless they are run at a higher temperature as what the standard cooling fins allow.  The inefficient combustion temps make fuel ratios richer than they should be and make spark plug heat range selection "interesting".

Alcohol absorbs moisture from the air.  This also decreases its energy content by volume.  Long term storage of a pure source is the issue here.  Home distilleries aren't known for their product purity or preservation.  Controlled water injection or infusion can be of benefit under high power settings.  However, water in alcohol also develops alkalies, which are corrosive to metals.  Note that the SOHC4 fuel tank and carbs are vented to the atmosphere where a ready source of water is always available.

Exhaust systems don't get as hot.  So, condensate doesn't expell as quickly or easily. Exhaust systems corrode more rapidly.  (Alkali in the exhaust, too, I think)

Lastly, the seals.  Yes, seals impervious to gasoline aren't necessarily impervious to alcohol.  But, don't worry, you'll be replacing these soon anyway, with the governments mandated gasohol requirements.
Stimulates the economy when people are forced to repair or replace with new equipment.  What could be better?

Cheers,




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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2006, 02:12:57 PM »
Most of what we would learn about air cooled engines and alcohol would come from the Go Kart world. Many Karts use it straight. Since the octane rating of straight alcohol is so high, we could really advance out timing far above where it is now on premium.
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Offline Lumbee

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2006, 02:16:44 PM »
Quote
And then last year did some experimentation with a 50 cc motor converted to alcohol.

...so did it run...did it run well enough to drive around, or was it just a "bench" test motor?
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supersport_CB400F

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2006, 02:21:12 PM »
I'd rather drink the stuff.......we cant have stills in the UK, if I could have both it would be heaven  ;D

Offline Tim2005

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2006, 03:32:35 PM »
Hey Biifta, we can buy ethanol fuel  in the UK - some Morrisons stations sell it, its called E85 (85% ethanol); I did wonder about trying it in one of my 400/4s then found out it is only 2p a litre less then normal petrol (around $8/gallon). Anyway, 400/4s run awesome on LRP, no idea why but they do! Though I wouldn't try drinking LRP either...

Offline Bodi

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2006, 03:33:23 PM »
I've had some experience with Speedway bikes, they burn pure methanol in 500CC singles. They certainly make power. The compression is very high - 16:1 I think. As far as oil,I don't know. Speedway bikes use castor oil, a one-pass system that lubes the bearings and valvegear then goes into a catch can. I'm not sure if it is because of a problem between regular oil and methanol, or if it's just tradition and that everyone loves that burnt Castrol R smell. I like to put a shot of it in my gas now and then to get that smell, anyway, so I guess I like it.
Around 1970 I had a cheap supply of chemicals and burned benzene in a CB77. It needed huge jets and never ran quite right but it made lots of power while staying pretty cool. I tried methanol but power was way down, I think you really need high compression to make it work.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2006, 01:40:15 AM »
Quote
And then last year did some experimentation with a 50 cc motor converted to alcohol.

...so did it run...did it run well enough to drive around, or was it just a "bench" test motor?

The motor is a two cylinder, two cycle, boxer type, 50cc displacement fitted to an 80 inch wingspan Cap 20L airplane. It was also converted to glow plugs, instead of spark plugs.
The engine pulls quite nicely and makes decent power; about 26 lbs of static thrust at 8000 RPM, according to my fish scale.
  I never flew it because the idle must be set high to keep it running.  All landings would have to be made dead stick and I'd need a helper to keep the 22 lb airplane from taxiing away and accelerating.  After many tuning attempts and even adding nitromethane to the methanol/ oil fuel mix, I finally figured out that the cooling fins are too large for the heat retention need at low firing intervals.  The platinum plugs need a minimum heat the catalyze the methanol into combustion.  And, the big fins needed for gasolines higher temps, were too effective for methanol's lower burn temps.  I suspect that if I could find higher compression pistons for it, it might run hot enough with the existing fins.  Alas....I can't find a source.

If I could find replacement pistons, rings, and cylinders for this engine, I might have ground the fins down.  But, that's a one way modification.  If I removed too much the engine would over heat and trash the engine ($700).
I considered the project a failure.
1. The airborne fuel requirements doubled the fuel weight.  And, that changes the balance of the model during flight as the fuel is used.  This requires constant in flight trimming.
2. To overcome the idle problem, I added spark ignition.  But, the ignition system added even more weight including weight in the tail to balance the plane over the wings.
3. To recover weight for flight performance, the denser gasoline fuel will halve the required on board fuel storage.

The project is disappointingly unfinished.

Cheers,




Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2006, 08:07:50 AM »
a friend of mine runs alcohol in his sprint car.  They change the oil after each race night because the alcohol that gets into the case from blowby will destroy the oil.  This may only be a problem with hi performance engines but I think that worn rings would have the same effect.

ElCheapo

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2006, 01:26:20 PM »
I don't know about hotter after spark or colder. But in highschool we tried a big block with a 30% alcohol and I can tell you that we ended up with froze fuel lines until we got it right.

Offline Dave Wyatt

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2006, 10:21:12 AM »
We used to race a Jr Dragster on methanol when my son was young.  I used Mobil 1 oil, which is a synthetic, to combat the excess fuel getting into the crank case thanks to the poor carburetion.   Our engine internals looked great after a half season.  Mobil 1 really protected the bearings and we only changed the oil on a weekly basis.

Many of the adult drag cars run on methanol as well and do not experience oil problems.  They are jetted accordingly and do not run overly rich.  If one is set up right, oil changes are not required any more often than with gas vehicles.

Methanol is fairly corrosive, but from what I have read, ethanol is not.  With the Junior and even on most of the big cars running methanol, we all had some way to flush the fuel system with gasoline.  Some ran a top end lube to offset this problem.  E85 is really just ethanol with 15% gasoline acting as a top end lubricant.  Once a few seals are replaced and the carbs are set up, you should be able to run the E85 with little problem.  The good news is, E85 is a better fuel than premium gas and the old Hondas should like it.
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Offline tsflstb

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2006, 10:41:24 AM »
One of the SAE student vehicle events when I was in college was an E-85 conversion of a Chevy Malibu.  There were some subtle and not so subtle things that needed changing.  Many seals were replaced with alcohol-compatible Viton ones.  The engine computer was replaced with a MOTEC unit and programmed for optimum performance. 

The big concern with ethanol was cold starting.  It doesn't ignite as well as gasoline.  Many schools had pre-heaters on the fuel lines.  We developed an on-board distillation system that would vaporize, re-condense and store the lighter fractions of the fuel in a secondary fuel tank to be used only at cold starts.  GM had some big ass freezers to do this testing.  They left all the vehicles in there overnight and timed them on startup the next morning.  It worked pretty well, but wasn't the most practical alternative.

I think if you played with jetting and kept an eye on your seals this would work.  Provided you don't park in a big ass freezer overnight.

Offline Lumbee

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2006, 10:52:52 AM »
...i'm down in baton rouge, la.   so other than the occationaly mid 30 degree nights in the winter, the cold weather shouldn't be a problem.  ;D
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Offline tsflstb

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Re: Anybody tryed alcohol conversion on there SOHC???
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2006, 11:18:35 AM »
Ahhh...Baton Rouge.  I spent the better part of 2004 over there -- kind of ironically installing high pressure fuel injection on some WW2 era natural gas compressors.  Lots of long summer days with my laptop sitting next to a scalding hot and extremely loud 3000 hp compressor.  Actually 10 of them.  I moved to a different department shortly after that project.  I do miss eating at Boutin's though.