Author Topic: A few questions about copper washers under head bolts  (Read 3857 times)

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Offline jessezm

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A few questions about copper washers under head bolts
« on: July 08, 2011, 09:08:49 AM »
First, does anyone know whether the rounded side of the copper crush washers under the head bolts (on a CB400f, if it matters) are supposed to face up or down?  I feel like I should know this, but I just wanted to make sure.  I installed them facing up, BTW, so I hope this was right!

Also, just wanted to double check whether this made sense to do:  I recently rebuilt my top-end with a big bore kit and new gaskets.  I used a thin film of gray hondabond around the oil passages on the sides of the heads, but still ended up with a very slight, intermittent leak on the left side, even after re-torquing.  I will say that while the heads were decked by the machine shop, the mating surface of the jugs were only cleaned up, and I did not think to check for any warpage at the time...

Fast forward to last weekend, and I thought that since I had re-used the old copper crush washers on the rebuild, I'd try replacing those.  So I ordered new ones, and replaced them one by one, starting with the outer washers and working my way in, and torquing them to spec as I replaced them.  Afterward, I gave the slightest additional turn to all the head bolts in the standard tightening pattern (inside to outside).

My thinking was that the old washers may have outlived their usefulness, and were contributing to the head not sealing all the way.  But I that theory could be totally bunk of course!   So can anyone tell me, did I replace them the right way, and was it even necessary?  Thanks


Offline jessezm

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Re: A few questions about copper washers under head bolts
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2011, 09:10:35 AM »
Oh, and also, will a re-torque be necessary after 100 miles or so, like right after a rebuild?

Offline camelman

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Re: A few questions about copper washers under head bolts
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2011, 09:41:14 AM »
I place the washers with the curve facing up.

Regarding your oil leak, did you replace the rubber dowel seals?  There should be one at each leading corner of the cylinders. That was the cause the leaks on my 350f.
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline camelman

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Re: A few questions about copper washers under head bolts
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2011, 09:45:13 AM »
I doubt you'll need to tetorque the nuts.
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline jessezm

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Re: A few questions about copper washers under head bolts
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2011, 11:50:40 AM »
I place the washers with the curve facing up.

Regarding your oil leak, did you replace the rubber dowel seals?  There should be one at each leading corner of the cylinders. That was the cause the leaks on my 350f.

Yeah, I did replace those.   Hopefully this will take care of it.  I haven't had time to ride around yet to find out...   If not, I'll live with the minor leak.  I really don't relish the thought of disassembling the top end for a third time!  Those 54.5 mm pistons are a bear to squeeze into the cylinders!

Offline camelman

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Re: A few questions about copper washers under head bolts
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2011, 02:30:28 PM »
I hear you on those pistons. I gave another set to do here shortly, and am not excited about it.

You should be leak free as long as your head is flat. These engines are not as leaky as people like to think. New gaskets and proper bolt torque make for good sealing.
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline MCRider

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Re: A few questions about copper washers under head bolts
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2011, 02:48:42 PM »
Reusing copper crush washers is a hit or miss proposition. YOu might get by, maybe (probably) not. Good luck with the new ones.

In the old days, with our Triumphs, the manual expalined how to "anneal" (look it up) an old copper washer to make it seal again. Even that was iffy.   :)
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
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Offline camelman

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Re: A few questions about copper washers under head bolts
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2011, 03:37:25 PM »
Mcrider, these are steel washers with a copper coating. They are more robust than copper crush washers, which I agree are not the best to reuse.

I want to see someone anneal a copper gasket correctly so that I can see how it is done. anyone have a good video?
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)