Topic: Can't find non-resistor plug caps--how do you run DR8EIX iridium resistor plugs?

[Syscrush]

This thread has taken several hilarious turns.

[Spanner 1]

Your all very conveniently ignoring crank rotation in your arguments !! The only ignition that will produce a max. advance of 23-25 degrees with the stock advance unit is the stock points... period!
Put any other ignition on the bike with the stock advance and those #s go out the window. Speed of switching effects crank rotation before spark happens.    The // marks for electronic do not, cannot = 23-25deg. advance.......... you MUST have a new mark before the stock // mark by several ( unknown )degrees  BEFORE  a faster ign. can produce spark at 23-26 deg. ( the designed max. advance ).......

I think the real problem here is that it's so hard to realise that with electronic ignition strobed at the max. advance mark you are NOT getting the same amount of advance as the point ignition... I know that's hard to get your head around, but when the penny drops it will be very clear.

Just to re-cap; it takes 35deg. of physical advance ( cam turning ) to produce an actual timing advance of 23-25 deg. with a point ignition..... so............ with an electronic ign. 'timed' at that same 35deg. mark, where is the crank in deg. BTDC ?

[Holden]

So a strobe timing light that is showing proper advance timing is somehow inaccurate if you're using an electronic ignition?

[Spanner 1]

No..... the strobe light is correct, showing the strobe marks but the timing is NOT 23-26 deg.BTDC.

[Simpson]

This thread has taken several hilarious turns.

+1 You just gotta chuckle

[Holden]

Position of timing marks are based on crank angle and lighting of strobe is based on induction of current in spark plug wire firing spark plug.  Ignition type seems irrelevant in this process.

[Skunk Stripe]

Crank rotation does not matter. If your crank position matches your cam position and your timing is on, you are good. It really IS that simple. The bike does not care what initiates the spark, just when the spark happens. THAT is all the engine cares about.
Does your engine stop and say "oh no you don't!" when you put in different fuel? Nope, nor does it care what ignition is used if timing is correct.
Spanner, I am starting to think that even if a honda engineer told you that an electronic was the best, you still would not listen.
Oh wait, they already HAVE told you, by not using points anymore.

Again, ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHEN SPARK HAPPENS, NOTHING MORE. AN ELECTRONIC IGN PRODUCES SPARK WHEN THE BIKE REQUIRES IT.
 

And yes, this thread has gotten quite funny.

[Spanner 1]

Do me a favor please and answer my question as to where the ign. is firing in degrees BTDC with electronic ign............. we already know it's 23 to 26 deg. with points... well ??

[Holden]

I think spanner is suggesting that had Honda engineers put an electronic ignition in these bikes, they would have put the advance timing marks in a different place.  And the rest of us are not seeing any sense in this as the timing marks indicate when the plugs should fire and the strobe indicates that (assuming proper timing adjustment) that they are fire at the right time.

At lease it's not an oil thread....

[WarwickE36]

I am on hold with Dyna tech support right now, stand by.  I almost guarantee it fires at 25*  at 2,500+

[WarwickE36]

10 minutes or so on hold now.... this may have to wait until I am officially off the clock at work 

[WarwickE36]

Ok I hit the 14 minute mark on hold. This question is going to have to wait.  I will email them as well.  Just for you Spanner.

[Simpson]

Do me a favor please and answer my question as to where the ign. is firing in degrees BTDC with electronic ign............. we already know it's 23 to 26 deg. with points... well ??

I'll answer your question. It's the same position as points or where you set it using the slotted backer plate just like points. Use you marks to find the timing then line it up to whatever degrees you want it to fire. The is no difference in timing adjustments for either system.  Just like the old favorite point and condensers...

[Spanner 1]

O.K. then it's all a myth.... electronic ignition switches at the same speed as points and will produce a spark at 23-26 deg. when timed at the // advance mark..... is that what your saying, Simpson, or anyone else ?

[Holden]

O.K. then it's all a myth.... electronic ignition switches at the same speed as points and will produce a spark at 23-26 deg. when timed at the // advance mark..... is that what your saying, Simpson, or anyone else ?

No, they're faster.  But once you set the timing with a strobe that slight speed difference is accounted for and the spark is firing at the exact time it's supposed to, regardless of ignition type.

[Pinhead]

O.K. then it's all a myth.... electronic ignition switches at the same speed as points and will produce a spark at 23-26 deg. when timed at the // advance mark..... is that what your saying, Simpson, or anyone else ?

Nope, that's not what anybody is saying, at all.

What we're saying is, "If the two systems strobe at the same position on the crank, than the spark between the two systems is occurring at the same position on the crank."

The lag that you're referring to happens before the spark and before the flash of the strobe. The flash of the strobe occurs during the spark itself, which is what is used to set timing.

[Spanner 1]

But Pinhead, that's my whole point (  ).... they are not strobing at the same position on the crank. only on the // marks, which for points only = 23-26 degrees!! Don't forget the // mark is actually 35deg. advance of TDC.

[Holden]

But Pinhead, that's my whole point (  ).... they are not strobing at the same position on the crank. only on the // marks, which for points only = 23-26 degrees!! Don't forget the // mark is actually 35deg. advance of TDC.

So, you're saying that there's a definable lag with points that is so constant and universal that Honda engineers used it when they determined where to set the timing marks?

Either way it's irrelevant because any lag is zero'ed-out when you set the timing with a strobe.  The strobe lights when the plug fires and the light shines on a mark indicative of crank angle.  A fraction of a millisecond difference between ignition types is going to be zero'ed out when you set the timing properly.

[Syscrush]

Summary of this thread:

Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.

The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?

[Spanner 1]

Let me put it this way.... when you strobe the ign. at the // marks what you are seeing is this;
the mechanical advancer has moved 35 degrees in advance of the T mark in order to produce a spark at ACTUAL 23-26 deg. advance of the crank !! Why, because of 'time lag' in the working of the points.
No arguement there. 
Now replace the points with electronic and turn the plate anyway you like to have it strobe at the // marks ( at 2,500 rpm is a given for all of this )...... now has the electronic ignition got the same 12 deg. lag as the points to give 23-26deg. spark... NO....... the // mark is good ONLY for the stock points !
In fact with the much faster electronic strobing at actual 35deg. the spark may be happening at 34 deg BTDC..... who the heck knows.... but it is not 23-26 deg.

[mlinder]

Spanner:

When your timing light is being triggered at the plug wire, and it fires at the \\ marks, that's when it fires, as the position of the \\ does not change in relation to the position of the crank, since, you know, it's connected to the crank.

That's when it fires. That's when the charge is being sent down the plug.

Triggered at plug wire, timed at \\, will always be the same place on the crank.

(edit: thats why you time elec ign at the advance mark...)

[Holden]

Summary of this thread:

Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.
Iridium plugs are neat.
No they aren't.

The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?
The strobe lights when the plug fires.
What about the crank?

Yes, it is.
No, it's not.
Yes, it is.

[kmb69]

But Pinhead, that's my whole point (  ).... they are not strobing at the same position on the crank. only on the // marks, which for points only = 23-26 degrees!! Don't forget the // mark is actually 35deg. advance of TDC.

OK, maybe I'm not done. The right "/" of the // marks is 35 deg whether it's points or electronic. These marks are "FIXED" on the advancer's base plate which is "FIXED" to the crankshaft. The "T" ALWAYS aligns to TDC on the crankshaft. The "F" ALWAYS aligns to 8.5deg BTDC on the crankshaft. The right "/" ALWAYS aligns to 35deg BTDC on the crankshaft.

Simpson gave you BAD information. The points are NOT causing the coil to fire at 23.5-26.5deg when the strobe says 35deg. It is firing at 35deg. The 23.5-26.5deg Simpson is refering to is the maximum ADDITIONAL rotation of the points cam at ~2500RPM that has to be added to the "F" mark position which is 8.5deg BTDC at ~1000RPM for a TOTAL of 35deg.

The Earth is NOT flat.

[mlinder]

I think I said that, kmb.

Well, not about the earth being flat.

Everyone knows its a mobius strip.

[kmb69]

mlinder, Sorry, I am old and type slow but faster than points.