Topic: Can't find non-resistor plug caps--how do you run DR8EIX iridium resistor plugs?

[TwoTired]

TwoTired,

I have noticed that a couple of posts that were favorable to my point of view in this stupid back and forth have been deleted. Do you have administrative authority to delete posts and are you abusing that authority to promote your point of view?

I appreciate yet another thinly veiled insult you are so fond of promoting. 
I only have authority over my own posts, same as other posters have authority, if not control, over their own posts.
Moderators, on the other hand, can delete or edit any post they have an inkling to censor, warranted or not.    May I suggest, rather than errant flaming and continued mud slinging, you (politely, if possible) discuss the matter with the forum moderators.

I am not a moderator for the single overhead cam forums.
It would seem you have jumped to yet another false conclusion.

[Retro Rocket]

May I suggest, rather than errant flaming and continued mud slinging, you (politely, if possible) discuss the matter with the forum moderators.

For Christ sake Lloyd, you follow Peter round the forum causing trouble in the threads he posts in and you have the hide to say that? You have stated you have no interest in his product, you have never used it and never even physically  seen it, so whats your point.  It works, his customers are happy and his after sales service is excellent and i have read this on more than one forum.  There is nothing polite about the way you conduct yourself towards Peter..... How about giving it a rest and doing something positive.....

[Scott S]

TwoTired,

I have noticed that a couple of posts that were favorable to my point of view in this stupid back and forth have been deleted. Do you have administrative authority to delete posts and are you abusing that authority to promote your point of view?

I appreciate yet another thinly veiled insult you are so fond of promoting. 
I only have authority over my own posts, same as other posters have authority, if not control, over their own posts.
Moderators, on the other hand, can delete or edit any post they have an inkling to censor, warranted or not.    May I suggest, rather than errant flaming and continued mud slinging, you (politely, if possible) discuss the matter with the forum moderators.

I am not a moderator for the single overhead cam forums.
It would seem you have jumped to yet another false conclusion.

 A simple "No, I am not  a moderator" would have been sufficient.

[kmb69]

TwoTired,

I have noticed that a couple of posts that were favorable to my point of view in this stupid back and forth have been deleted. Do you have administrative authority to delete posts and are you abusing that authority to promote your point of view?

Pete, I deleted my own posts if you are referring to the 2 posts I left. They seemed a bit out of place after the maelstrom continued. No, I am not a moderator. I think anyone can delete their own posts. Also, I think I found the answers to my questions regarding lower resistance coils after perusing your website and your sponsor thread. The only question I would like answered is related to the "long" wire version availability. I want to buy a couple of your units but I do not want the "short" wire versions.

PS. Personally (not that it is any of my business), I wish that you AND TwoTired could drop the personal attacks and stick to objective technical questions and responses. Both of you guys have presented good stuff in this thread as well as others. This type of technical information is very enlightening to me and I would expect it to be the same for others as well. Just my .02

Keith

[Deltarider]

A transitor or an electronic ignition just cuts much faster than points ever can. That's the secret. No more sparks at the breaker points, there's your gain. No big thing. 

[Syscrush]

A transitor or an electronic ignition just cuts much faster than points ever can. That's the secret. No more sparks at the breaker points, there's your gain. No big thing. 

Do you have 6 cross-referenced peer-reviewed scientific papers to back that up along with oscilloscope waveforms and a doctor's note?

[Holden]

Pete and Lloyd, you both presented good information.  (Let's forget the last posts and all be friends.)  I think you're both intelligent guys with a passion for these bikes.  If anything, this thread has convinced me that the PAMCO is superior to Dyna.  Also, that well-maintained points work well.  But an electronic ignition is zero-maintenance and always in perfect tune.  There still may be a PAMCO in my future...

[WarwickE36]

Holden for what its worth I got bored today and ordered a set of DR8EIX plugs I pulled the previous set of plugs and will take a picture of the Iridiums VS. the old plugs.  I have made no carb tune modifications since the last plug install.  So this should show us (some) real world application information.  Let me ride on them 100 mile or so (couple days).  My guess is they will look pretty similar.

[pamcopete]

kmb69,

OK. I only make the version with two separate three wire cables, one for the 1-4 coil and the other for the 2-3 coil. Each of the cables is 48" long which is enough to follow the same route as the stock wires, towards the rear and back to the front under the tank. You can also just do your connections to the coils where the stock points wires plug in near the brake light switch. I did mine that way and then just picked up switched battery from the regulator on the left side. The kill switch still kills the coil power, so it's OK to have the PAMCO powered by the ignition switch. Wiring it that way means that you do not even have to remove the gas tank if you are going to use the stock coils.

[Holden]

Warwick, are you going to go to non-resistor caps with the DR8EIX iridium plugs?

[CB500_k2]

I have been running iridium plugs in my 500 for about 4 years.  It was a bear to start and I thought I would try iridium plugs.  I first used resistor plugs with resistor caps.  Seemed to work fine.\ and started easier.  Later I got some Dyna coils with resistor-free caps.  I can't say that the bike works any better with just one set of resistors.  Then again, I don't run at the flaming edge of SOHC capability.  Who would have thought that iridium plugs would achieve "oil status"?

[Pinhead]

Holden for what its worth I got bored today and ordered a set of DR8EIX plugs I pulled the previous set of plugs and will take a picture of the Iridiums VS. the old plugs.  I have made no carb tune modifications since the last plug install.  So this should show us (some) real world application information.  Let me ride on them 100 mile or so (couple days).  My guess is they will look pretty similar.

You should try testing how far you can go with the plug gap...

The only benefit I can see with the iridium plugs is if you were to open the gap up further than the stock combination would otherwise allow. I was able to go 0.005" inches wider in the gap with my ignition system, though admittedly 0.080" is on the very edge of reliability; much further and the wires can no longer hold in the spark under heavy engine loads.

For instance if the factory calls for 0.025" gap, I'd test 0.030" or 0.035" with iridium plugs.

I replaced the resistors with slugs in my test to keep the in-line resistance values close to the same (remember that the stock plug caps have removable/replaceable resistors). With the stock ignition system I would not run resistor plugs with resistor caps.

The way I see it, since the iridium plugs' claim to fame is to reduce the voltage requirement to initiate the spark, the only time they would show an advantage is if spark voltage is your limiting factor. With a stock engine and stock plug gap, I could see them helping in situations where the coil primary voltage is low such as while the starter motor is cranking over and/or idling with a semi-depleted battery. This advantage would be further demonstrated if the plug gap is wider than stock.

[DJ_AX]

  all that's got me spinning...

Regular plugs are cheap, easy, and work fine for me.
And I find satisfaction in putting in fresh plugs. 
It's as easy as pulling some cords and turning some levers.
Oh wait... that's exactly all it is.

to each his own.

[Spanner 1]

A transitor or an electronic ignition just cuts much faster than points ever can. That's the secret. No more sparks at the breaker points, there's your gain. No big thing. 

Yes Delta Rider... thats why ANY ignition thats not stock cannot produce the correct Honda engineered advance curve.... electronic fires WAAY in advanced vs, stock 'time lag' ( designed in ) gives the ONLY correct ignition performance.. or all those Honda engineers are wrong, wrong, wrong ! So Pamco, Dyna or whatever show me the curve of your ignition matching the designed advance . Doesn't happen. Statements like' uses the stock advance unit' is bull#$%* when electronic vs. points, so give that up. Sorry but if you don't supply your own mechanical advance unit matched to the faster ( electronic ) spark timing I won't be using  your product and show an independant tester confirming that your ignition follows the designed advance curve, anyone ?

[Deltarider]

Yes Delta Rider... thats why ANY ignition thats not stock cannot produce the correct Honda engineered advance curve.... electronic fires WAAY in advanced vs, stock 'time lag'

I'm afraid you mix things up here, Spanner. The extremely fast switching of electronic components (compared to breaker points) has in it self nothing to do with the advance curve. The faster the switching, the higher the voltage. Pamcopete states his device sends some 400V for the coils to work with. Yes, but good working points send plenty energy too. In a healthy working system it's all in fact overkill, in other words there's enough reserve. I don't know why people are so fixed on higher voltages. You need a certain voltage to initially bridge the sparkpluggap and then enough energy to maintain the spark that by then is much lower in voltage. Better to concentrate on your connectors, HTleads, plugcaps and spark plugs themselves. Treat you bike with a new set of spark plugs.

[Retro Rocket]

All the nay  saying bull is just wrong.  These systems work, and better than points, if points were the "holy grail", everything would still have points. If the advance curves were all wrong then why do the electronic systems idle , accelerate and overall, operate better? Its quite funny that we have electronic systems that obviously work well in practice but  the theorists still dispute them. Points are old technology, time to move on.

[WarwickE36]

Holden, I have Dyna 5ohm coils with Dyna wires with no caps currently.

[Skunk Stripe]

Spanner, the japanese are known for being frugal, especially back then. Points were probably all they had in 69, they worked and so they stuck with them. I really doubt they designed the system in such a way that only points work properly. Advance is advance, especially if you are using the mechanical unit. The curve relies on that unit. Faster switching just makes things more precise and efficient, it does not change the stock advancers operation.
What I like is that you want a paper showing the advance from these units yet you have nothing that proves the points actually work better. I know Mark did testing that was supposed to show the dyna S not being as good as points and yet those of us that use it, like it. My bike roars to redline easy and runs very well with the s. And his testing was only with the S, what about the multiple units besides? How many here build up their engines, while not changing the mechanical timing, still use points? Few if any.
If you like points, hey thats great. But unless you have really tried an electronic ignition, you have no bases for comparison. Most of us that have electronic, did have points and yet we stayed with electronic. We might have no hard data that would sway you, but then you have none either.

[Spanner 1]

Thanks Delta, not seeing my 'point' yet tho'  !!
Let me say it a different way and see what happens !
The max. spark advance on my K1 750 motor as designed is 35 degrees ( From Honda shop manual ).
To achieve a spark at  this amount of advance ( at or above 2,500 rpm ) the mechanical unit was made so as to stop turning the points cam at a certain amount of turning ( as limited by the weights reaching the advancer 'stops' )     Remember, this amount of rotation produces a spark @ 35deg. with the stock point ignition with it's built-in time lag ( as compared to electronic ).
Now, put on an electronic ignition. Same advancer, and set the timing at the full advance // marks.
The electronic being much faster must produce a spark well in advance of what the point ignition would with the same advancer.  You might say " But I strobed the ignition and it clearly shows the // marks in the window @ 2,500 rpm ".... right, but where is the spark happening in degrees, certainly not 35deg. as designed. Also, where in degrees is the ignition @ idle/static with the same advancer and timing set @ the max. advance marks ??

[Deltarider]

Its quite funny that we have electronic systems that obviously work well in practice but  the theorists still dispute them. Points are old technology, time to move on.

Fine, that's the theory and you're right. I've rode my bike the last 12 years with a selfbuilt transistor ignition and it prooved reliable and the breaker points now live more than 50.000 kms. BUT... I've never been tempted to locate any NON STOCK electronic ignition in a place where vibrations are at its wildest and temperature is pretty high too. Yes Honda and all the other brands can make them and when they're on their models you can bet they've been tested. But what guarantee do I have that one of those aftermarkets products can deal with the vibrations and high temperature? My module is safe, cool, free of vibrations because it is mounted on the side of the battery (simply by using the rubber strap) and I believe Hondaman's can be mounted just like mine. That for me is the only criterium. You can produce all the volts you like, but recently somewhere else in this forum mentioned a pick-up that became brittle or melted or whatever I forgot and that tells me.

It's some time ago now I had a chat with a car designer. You'll never guess what he thought were the most difficult parts to design to make them work reliable over a long period of time. Doors and windows.

[kmb69]

Spanner, It seems to me the timing light strobes when it senses the pulse on the secondary winding. So I think it is in fact happening when the location on the advancer shows it is. Whether it's points or electronic the timing light tells the truth.

Keith

[Spanner 1]

Disagree, Keith.
The strobe light will show the // marks only means the advancer is working and has reached it's 'stops'. At the // marks the stock points ignition is producing a spark at 35degrees , at what deg. is the electronic ign. producing a spark at the // marks ? Nobody knows.

[Simpson]

In my heart I love stock from and think its a great machine.

What seems to give me a chuckle is I actually have Iridium plugs and a Dyna system on my k0. Simply due to curiosity. To see for myself, how they perform. Its funny to see the folks disputing newer technologies dismissing them without trial testing them. The excuse "I don't want to waste my money". That's ridiculous. Someone would rather type 50-100 dollars of sweat equity into a post but not care enough to lay down a scientific testing. These are not expensive parts to buy.

Has anyone thought about the limitations of a points system? I bet most of the folks with points have worn loose springs creating an advance to soon, dirty pivot mechanisms, worn points or points not adjusted properly with incorrect dwell times.

There's no perfect solution. You can can find pros and cons to anything.

Again, I think points work fine when maintained correctly but at least I took the time to review and test these products first hand. Using a strobe I can see a Dyna match timing on rpm and spark as outlined by Honda. I can also test at high rpm the health of the ignition. 

Put your money were your mouth is, buy it and review it for yourself.

[WarwickE36]

The strobe light will show the // marks only means the advancer is working and has reached it's 'stops'. At the // marks the stock points ignition is producing a spark at 35degrees , at what deg. is the electronic ign. producing a spark at the // marks ? Nobody knows.

Put your bike on a Dyno, run it.  Install electronic ignition you believe to be worthless, run it.  Compare the numbers.   If the spark advance is too retarded the power wont be there PERIOD

[Syscrush]

If there weren't people irrationally fond of crappy old tech, there would be no community supporting 40 year old bikes with stamped-steel frames, wire wheels, skinny tires, drum brakes, and carbureted air-cooled single-cam 2V motors.

And I think we're ALL glad to have that community!