Topic: Can't find non-resistor plug caps--how do you run DR8EIX iridium resistor plugs?

[Spanner 1]

To say that the //  advance marks will produce the same amount of spark advance with an electronic ignition is just plain wrong! That would presume that point ignition is 'instantanious' which it is not !!
The // marks will/can ONLY produce a spark at 35deg. with the point ignition. Any other ignition that switches faster or slower will not fire at 35deg...... the // marks are NOT a 35deg. mark, just a reference mark for max. advance AND 35deg, spark with the stock ignition.
In order for an 'aftermarket' electronic ignition to work to the factory Honda specs; i.e. produce a spark at the correct degree at idle and thru' the rpm range, maxing-out at 35deg BTDC at 2,500rpm and above , the electronic ign. maker would HAVE TO supply their own advance unit tailored to the actual advance curve of the particular motor it's going on.... the stock advancer ( made for points ) cannot do that.........

[Skunk Stripe]

Spanner, how do you know? You seem to be missing something here, something very critical. Timing with any electronic unit that uses the stock advance is the same as it is with points. What a electronic ignition does is allow faster switching for greater accuracy. I can take a timing light and time equally with points and dyna s at idle marks and full advance and they are the same. I can also use the timing light to see the advance with both working the same. The advance is not changing. You are stuck on this yet you have nothing to back it up. So you like points, we never said that was bad yet you are on this crusade to claim electronic ignitions are bad when you just have no proof of that and, in fact, almost everyone that has changed to electronic, loves it. From what I can tell, you have never even tried an electronic ignition which decreases the value of what you say. You have no 3rd party proof a dyna is worse and you have not even tried it. Next you will say they fail more but even that is unsubstantiated. People have had points fail too. People here are using the old dyna 3, the precursor to the S. Thats pretty damn good life.

Again, advance at idle and full is the same for both points and the S. I am sorry if you do not believe that, but it is. If I was at my bike right now, I could check timing and it would fire perfectly in line with where it is supposed per the manual. Spark is the proof right there and spark happens exactly when it is supposed to. If the spark did not happen when it was supposed to, it would not line up with the fire mark and yet it does. So therefore, the advance is correct and thus spark is correct. You would know this if you ever actually tested a dyna s.

[Spanner 1]

How do I know ?... I know that an electronic switch is very much faster than a mechanical switch ( points ). That's all I need to know.  To achieve a spark ( tested on a running motor ) at 35deg. , the points may start opening at 40 deg. and the 'time delay' of the switch actually opening allows the crank to turn the extra 5 deg. before the spark happens....... see ? So, the timing mark is set accordingly . . Now put in electronic, 'time' it at the // advance marks, how many deg. is it firing at ?
 The // mark ( max. advance ) and the max. timing of 35deg. are NOT tied together..... I am not 'dissing' anyone's  Dyna, Pamco etc. Again, because you see the // marks with your strobe light does not mean you have spark @ 35 deg.

[Skunk Stripe]

So wait, if I have spark at F with points and with an electronic, you still think the advance is different? Wow. Points only start opening sooner because they are slower. Both units still have the same advance and fire at the same time. That proves the advance is fine. And the F mark IS tied to a propverly working advance unit. If your springs were weak, it would advance too soon and too late if they are too strong.
Bottom line is you want the spark to occur when the timing hits F. If it does that, it is spot on. Why do you think there are 2 sets of marks? So you can set idle and full advance. The dyna follows this as you do not set 2 separate timings on the S. You put it on and time it for full advance, provided your advancer is working right, that is still 35. When at idle, it is still timed. It uses all the same marks that points use, it just switches faster and so is more precise and efficient.
but there is one question you have not answered. Why are points not still used? I think we both know this answer. Since timing is timing and advance is advance, engines are not designed with curves that can only be fed by 1 device.

[WarwickE36]

+1 Skunk Stripe ...

How someone cannot wrap their head around this concept is beyond me.  Timing lights show when the coil has fired. If that lines up with the timing mark the ignition is timed whether it be electronic or mechanical. Its not a magical mystery box that somehow guesses timing depending on its mood.

[kmb69]

The trigger mechanism, whether it is points or electronic, is the variable that the manufacturer has to "locate" properly to provide a correctly timed spark. The base of the advancer is pinned (fixed) to the crank in either case. It is this base where the timing marks are compared via strobe to the pointer on the case. If the timing light says it is firing at the max advance marks with either type of system, it is firing exactly there.

[Spanner 1]

Hey, I've no problem with points not being used on bikes for , what, 25-30 yrs ? ... that's not the issue.
So, points and electronic both switch at the same speed and can use the same timing marks and  would produce a spark at the same point of rotation of the crankshaft ( deg. BTDC ) Great..........

How someone can not wrap their head around the concept that electronic is faster than mechanical is beyond me.... AND would need a different timing mark to produce the same deg. of timing !!

[Spanner 1]

You can strobe your electronic ignition all day long and look at the max. advance mark showing in the window, but it will not be firing at 35deg. as designed unless your electronics have some delay circuit built-in to match the much lesser speed of the points switching. Again, the timing marks are good only for the stock ignition, put in faster switches, you must change the timing marks to achieve the same deg. settings... OR believe that points/electronic work at the same speed and will always produce spark at the same deg. of rotation of the crank........

[kmb69]

The // mark ( max. advance ) and the max. timing of 35deg. are NOT tied together..... I am not 'dissing' anyone's  Dyna, Pamco etc. Again, because you see the // marks with your strobe light does not mean you have spark @ 35 deg.

How someone can not wrap their head around the concept that electronic is faster than mechanical is beyond me.... AND would need a different timing mark to produce the same deg. of timing !!

It is proven that the electronic is faster. That is not the issue. It is the trigger mechanism on the electronic system that has to be "retarded" (rotated CCW in the case of the SOHC 750) to cause the spark to occur at the proper time. Whether or not the "//" marks are exactly at 35deg is related to manufacturing tolerances of the spark advancer base plate and the pointer on the engine cases. If the timing light says both systems are  firing at the "//" location then they are firing at the identical same time regardless of the actual degrees.

[Spanner 1]

The spark does not occur at the // mark. The spark occurs with a time delay and allows the crankshaft to rotate and is therefore 'set' at a place that allows for that rotation, to produce 35deg. for points ONLY..........  set electronic at the // mark it will fire at something other than 35 deg. The strobe showing the // marks with your electronic ign. is all lovely, BUT where is the spark happening on the crankshaft's rotation / 25deg,./30deg/ 40deg..... no way of knowing except it is not 35deg. like it's supposed to be !
That's all I'm saying... won't work within specs...

[Retro Rocket]

Spanner, the electronic ignition works better so i still don't get your point.? The bikes obviously run BETTER and do no damage and rev further and probably produce slightly more power because of this so again, whats your point..?

[WarwickE36]

Exactly, by his own theory these bikes probably make slightly and insignificantly more power at redline.  If there is "proof" electronic ignitions are faster at triggering the coils they would therefor be slightly more advanced.  Because there isnt anyone here saying "I ignited my motor and blew hole in my piston because of my ignition" I doubt the advance is much if anything.  If you are so paranoid the Dyna or Pamco is going to blow your motor, run 89, or 91, hell run LL100, or tweak it back 1*.  Personally I set my Dyna to their specified setting.  I have run it on 87, 89, and 91.  It runs best on 87 as it should IMO.  If it ran better on 91 I would say it may be too far advanced, but it doesn't.

[Spanner 1]

I never said one word about being paranoid about Dyna or Pamco... stop putting words in my mouth.
 What I am saying is that it would be nice to be able to buy an aftermarket electronic ignition that actually matches the stock advance curve, i.e., that comes with an advance unit that will give the correct advance  at the // marks , which does not/cannot happen with the stock unit as it's set-up both 'F' mark and max. mark // for a much slower point ignition.... can't say it any plainer 

[Pinhead]

I suppose this latest argument depends on what you're using to fire the strobe. If you're using the primary of the coil, the timing will be different between the electronic system vs points.

however, if you're using the induced current in the secondary winding to fire the strobe, it matters not how the coil was fired. You may have to retard the timing to get the strobe to fire on the same marks, but once you do, the timing will be idendical between the two systems.

Remember that it is spark current that triggers the strobe. Once current is flowing, the strobe lights up. How the coils are triggered has no bearing on how the strobe lights up.

Now, the "effective" timing may be advanced with the electronic ignition if it ignites a sufficiently larger amount of fuel due to the increased spark power. But that doesn't mean it's giving you more advance, it simply means your engine no longer requires as much advance as may be required with a weaker spark.

[WarwickE36]

however, if you're using the induced current in the secondary winding to fire the strobe, it matters not how the coil was fired. You may have to retard the timing to get the strobe to fire on the same marks, but once you do, the timing will be idendical between the two systems.

Remember that it is spark current that triggers the strobe. Once current is flowing, the strobe lights up. How the coils are triggered has no bearing on how the strobe lights up.

Whamo someone else who gets how timing with a light works.

+1 ,000


From my previous post

Timing lights show when the coil has fired. If that lines up with the timing mark the ignition is timed whether it be electronic or mechanical.

[Spanner 1]

With due respect Pinhead, you don't see the difference either !  Here I go again for the 10 th. time !
The point ign. firing at the // marks = 35 deg. BTDC with the designed/ allowed for points 'lag'.
The electronic ign. firing at the // marks is NOT 35deg. but something  MORE advanced as the spark happens much, much faster and the designed rotation of the crank will not happen before the spark occours at unknown # of degrees...... if the points switched as fast as the electronic, then great the same timing mark can be used.

[Pinhead]

I believe you're referring to "ignition lag" which has more to do with the power and profile of the spark, as well as the plug gap and in-cylinder conditions (which is what I was alluding to with my "effective timing" comment)...

It doesn't mean the spark is firing at a different time, it means the spark is more/less effective at igniting the mixture.

But really, we're just arguing terminology here; the effect is still the same: The more powerful spark ignites the mixture better which starts the flame front sooner which effectively increases timing advance. Just terminology.

But this, too, is really a moot point. If the electronic ignition is effective enough to reduce ignition lag and produce a stronger and faster flame front, less timing is needed and more power will result.

[kmb69]

It doesn't mean the spark is firing at a different time, it means the spark is more/less effective at igniting the mixture.

+1. Amen

[Spanner 1]

Not referring to the quality of the spark, chambers etc, only the # of degrees rotation of the crankshaft when the spark happens, nothing more! Nothing to do with spark performance el. vs points. Only concerned as to when the spark is happening. Your still presuming that points and electronic produce a spark at the same speed at ANY given rpm.... sorry, wrong.  If the points take 5 ms to produce a spark then in that 5 ms the crank has turned several degrees, this is allowed for in the // timing marks. But only for points..... electronic is much faster and will cause a spark well before the crank has turned those several degrees to get to 35 deg,  what's so hard to understand about that ??

[Skunk Stripe]

Pinhead, I time from the secondary. Always have and as you said, both systems fire the same, which is what I was getting at.
It does not matter when the trigger is made(aside from dwell times for saturation of course)what matters is when the spark fires. It actually does not even matter the supposed advance of the ignition, what matter is if things fire when the mechanical marks indicate they should. No matter the system, if you time via secondary, which I believe one should always do, if you are on the correct marks, then your advance is fine.

This is pretty simple stuff, really.
Spanner, Dont you thing the unit is made to compensate for its faster response time? I mean that is the whole basis of your argument. "oh the electronic fires faster so therefore, even if marks line up, somehow, magically, your advance is wrong."
This is not the case.
All that matters is that spark happens when it is supposed to. And it does. The rest of us have all seen this. The ignitions are made to work within the parameters of the bike, just more accurately.

[Spanner 1]

No magic to it !....... does electronic ignition timed at the // max. advance mark produce spark  at 35deg. of crank advance....Yes or No.?

[scottly]

If the // max. advance marks are indeed at 35 degrees, Yes. 

[Spanner 1]

That's the big misconception !!  the advance marks are NOT 35deg.... how could they be unless point ignition ( what they are there for ) is instantanous !!! The // marks have no relation to crank rotation ( deg, ) except with that amount of points cam rotation, the points will produce a spark at 35deg. at 2,500 rpm. Notice I said points, nothing else, not any other 'switch'.......

[kmb69]

Yes, the timing marks are at 35deg. Just went out to the shop and measured a brand new Spark Advancer 30220-300-154. The right "/" of the "//" is 35deg BTDC from the T (TDC) mark.

The // marks are NOT measuring when the points open but when the coil fires.

[Spanner 1]

Great kmb... thanks for that, I have no problem being corrected ... on that issue, but were back to ignition 'speed' and how many degrees more advance electronic ign. will produce a spark vs. points  with the stock advance unit and at the // max. advance mark ?? It can't be the same.
How does it relate to the actual crankshaft position ( deg. )... or are points as fast as electronic ?