Author Topic: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750  (Read 8820 times)

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Offline Kickstart

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How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« on: July 23, 2011, 11:21:33 PM »
I have made multiple attempts to reduce the amount of front brake drag on my 75 CB750F.  The latest try was rebuilding a front caliper off my spare bike, and swapping it with my existing caliper.  I'm now wondering if the amount of drag I get is normal.

With the bike on the center stand, and a jack under the front of the engine so the front wheel can spin... I get the following drag "measurements" when I give the front wheel a strong spin:

  • With the piston side pad/caliper pushed in slightly (and the fixed pad adjusted properly so there is a gap) - i.e. no pads touching the disc - The wheel spins for approximately 10-12 full revolutions before coming to a stop.
  • Next, I apply the front bake multiple times, and then spin the wheel again - the wheel spins for approximately 3-4 full revolutions before coming to a stop.  I do this multiple times and get the same 3-4 revolutions

Is this normal?... I'd be very interested to hear what measurements other CB750 owners get.

I can feel the caliper "pulling back" slightly when I put my fingers next to the caliper and disc, but I'm thinking it's not pulling back enough.  On the other hand, I realize that even though the piston pulls back, the non-fixed pad will still maintain contact with the disc and therefore I should expect some level of drag.

As far as I can tell, I rebuilt and assembled everything properly:
  • The MC vent hole is clear
  • Thoroughly cleaned the caliper/piston housing - using a cut-up credit card to clean out the seal groove
  • I used a new piston seal during the rebuild of the caliper and I used all the right stuff (Raybestos assembly lube on the seal, Dow silicone grease on the expose parts of the piston and airside of the inside caliper housing.)
  • Ensured the non-fixed pad slides freely within it's housing (not binding)
  • Brake adjustment set so there is just a slight gap between the disc and the fixed brake pad.
  • Beveled the edges of the new brake pads

Is this level of drag normal?... How much drag are the rest of you seeing?

If this isn't normal, is there something I missed during the rebuild/assembly?

Thanks
- Chris
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Offline bryanj

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2011, 01:08:47 AM »
If the wheel can spin, as you say it does, then all is OK.

Only thing not on your list was clean and grease the swinging pivot pin
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Offline steam-powered man

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2011, 04:10:24 AM »
have rebuilt a few front calipers, about 6 i think and going for seven shortly on my latest heap, and your results mirror mine.  after a short ride, the rotor will probably be warm but should not be hot. 
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Offline Simpson

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2011, 04:21:32 AM »
Sounds like too much drag. getting the caliper housing impeccably clean is a must, especially in the seal groove is very important. I buff the piston with mothers to  a shine. If your piston has pitting, than it may never work smoothly. Be sure to replace the seal ring.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 04:29:39 AM by Simpson »
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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2011, 04:29:03 AM »
Heat is the key, if it is heating up, it has excess contact.  You may have pads that are slightly misaligned from use if the adjustment was off for any period of time.  Slight contact is normal, and unavoidable, in any caliper system but pressure that creates heat is not.  I would suggest riding with some heavy braking stops followed by some light braking and cruising brakes off.  This will "set" your operating alignment and then check for drag.

Offline jawntybull

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2011, 06:05:52 AM »
I've been restoring my bike over the last month; despite old pads the disk never runs hot. What I have noticed is that its improved markedly in feel and stopping power with use; an hour of hard riding and braking seemed to do the brake wonders.

Still squeals a little when braking if rolling backwards in the driveway; nothing to worry about though.
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Offline Steve_K

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2011, 06:20:36 AM »
When I check my wheels I push in the pads and spin.  I get the same amount of turns as you.  I adjust the pad screw, and then I use small pumps at the brake lever.  I found on newer bikes if I pump with one pump the wheel drags.  I think it is because the oring is over extended and can not retract the the pad.  I have no idea if it works better on old Hondas but it works for me.  Urban legend?  If that doesnot help, the oring may need to be replaced and the oring groove cleaned as other posters suggest.
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2011, 10:07:56 AM »
Thanks for all the great feedback!

...Only thing not on your list was clean and grease the swinging pivot pin

Yes, good point, I forgot to mention that I also disassembled the pivot, greased it, and made sure is swivels freely.

...caliper housing impeccably clean is a must, especially in the seal groove is very important

...If your piston has pitting, than it may never work smoothly. Be sure to replace the seal ring.

I didn't mention in my first post that I actually did this twice, the first time with a NOS piston and the second time (with the parts bike caliper) using a SS piston I bought on Ebay (both times with a new seal ring) - so both times the piston was in perfect shape - same "drag" results both times.

Regarding the seal groove - I'm starting to wonder if I cleaned it well enough... or, conversely, if the groove was damaged by over cleaning (between myself and/or PO's)  I noticed on parts bike caliper there seemed to be some scratches in the grove.

... Slight contact is normal, and unavoidable, in any caliper system but pressure that creates heat is not.  I would suggest riding with some heavy braking stops followed by some light braking and cruising brakes off.  This will "set" your operating alignment and then check for drag.

...What I have noticed is that its improved markedly in feel and stopping power with use; an hour of hard riding and braking seemed to do the brake wonders.

I'm hoping this may be the case (just need to use it for a while for everything to set)... but my gut tells me this probably isn't it, as it didn't seem to work the first time I rebuilt the caliper.... I'll ride it for a few hundred miles and see if anything improves.

When I check my wheels I push in the pads and spin.  I get the same amount of turns as you.  I adjust the pad screw, and then I use small pumps at the brake lever.  I found on newer bikes if I pump with one pump the wheel drags.  I think it is because the oring is over extended and can not retract the the pad.  I have no idea if it works better on old Hondas but it works for me.  Urban legend?  If that doesnot help, the oring may need to be replaced and the oring groove cleaned as other posters suggest.
Steve

I've also wondered about this - which would mean the adjustment of the fixed pad is critical.  Intuitively this makes since - if the distance the piston has to travel is within the range the seal can distort before it slips (maintains static friction vs. kinetic friction) it would have more "grab" on the piston and maintain it's distortion.  Of course, at some point the piston does have to "slip" to make up for the reduced pad thickness as it wears - maybe the heat/vibration of use re-sets everything after a "slip"

However, I've played with the adjustment forever, trying different distances, and also did like you said using small pumps to slowly move the piston in. - still the same results

The one other thing I didn't mention is a possible issue with the disc.  I notice that when I adjust the fixed pad just right (or as close as possible without touching), the disc slightly makes contact "scrapes" at the same point during every revolution.  I had the wheel trued and ask the shop to measure the run-out on the disc.  They told me the disc was withing spec.  Unfortunately, I don't have much confidence in the shop (and I made the mistake of telling them the run-out specs when I dropped it off)... I never got them to tell me the run-out measurement... just said it was within spec.  They also put the tire on in the wrong direction >:(

However, I don't think that's the issue either, as I still get the same revolutions when I swap out the front wheel from the parts bike (and it doesn't have the "scrapping" problem)

Maybe I'll try a third rebuild from the caliper off my other "parts bike".. which are really my other project bikes that are slowly turning into parts bikes.  :(
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 10:12:17 AM by Kickstart »
- Chris
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Offline bryanj

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2011, 09:00:15 AM »
Sounds like the disc is warped, a good used one will probably be OK as its rare to warp one of thes old stainless discs
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Offline Skunk Stripe

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2011, 09:13:32 AM »
I go by heat, not rotation. A 30 mile ride at high speed and when I stop, I can grab my rotor and it is cool to the touch. My tires are warmer.
no heat is the sign of no appreciable drag.

Offline HondanutRider

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2011, 03:59:59 PM »
I've applied a bit of heat resistant silicone (similar to anti-squeal compound for disc brake pads) to the back of the fixed pad.  That way I think it gets more "stuck" to the caliper and doesn't get as much of a chance to get hung up and squeal.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2011, 04:08:33 PM »
Heat.
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2011, 01:43:19 PM »
OK... I came back from a 75 mile ride yesterday (mostly highway).

I pull the bike into the garage, turn it off, and after waiting approximately 5 minutes I grab the rotor.... Hot!

Not so hot that it burned, but too hot to continue to hold with a bare hand.  I had to let go after about 2 seconds.

So I guess I'm leaning towards a warped rotor.  I'll try swapping out the other rotor to see if things improve.
- Chris
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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2011, 01:47:15 PM »
return hole in the master cylinder partially plugged, or a collapsed line internally not letting the pressure off quickly after each brake application?  Happened to me on an airplane once with nearly fatal results.

Offline Kickstart

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2012, 10:23:02 AM »
So... I took another stab at this issue yesterday (basically spent the whole day trying to identify the problem), but I still can't crack this one.  Still getting only 3-4 revolutions on the front tire when I give it a good spin.  Since I know my friend's bike (almost the same exact bike - 76 cb750f) gets 10-12 revolutions, I know I should be able to achieve the same thing.  And I'm getting really tired of my brakes squealing on slow stops.  I kind of learned to live with it, but I really want my front brakes to be in optimum condition and I'm also trying to track down an MPG issue that I think might be related.

What I tried:

1. Pulled another master cylinder off one of my parts bikes, cleaned it up and swapped it.  I didn't think I had a clogged master cylinder, but I just wanted to rule it out.  Problem still persisted.  I noticed with both my master cylinders, I can see plenty of air bubbles coming up through the holes when bleeding the brakes.  So I really don't think the issue is here.

2. I took the best looking caliper from one of my parts bikes, spent hours meticulously cleaning it.  Used strips of old credit cards and brake cleaner.  Lightly polished the inside bore with 0000 steel wool.  Lightly polished the piston with 2000 grit sandpaper.  Cleaned everything, put in a new o-ring, and used a little bit of brake cleaner to lube the piston before sliding it in (instead of the raysbetous assembly lube I used last time.)  And did all the other proper things (dow silcone grease, etc.)   - swapped it out with the caliper on the bike - Problem still exists!

I don't think it could be the lines, as they are new (from last year I believe) - goodridge SS for the top line, and OEM brake line on the bottom.

I do notice the caliper moving back an forth some.  So I think the O-ring return is working properly (or maybe that's just everything flexing?).  Either it's just not retracting enough, or maybe something else is not lined up properly?

If I carefully adjust the swing arm, I can get the wheel to spin well... and even after a couple very light brake applications.  But once I pull the lever in hard, the brakes don't retract enough.

I didn't try swapping the rotor yet (as I don't really think that's the issue). A while back I swapped out another wheel from one of my other bikes, still had the same problem - so I don't think it's a warped rotor on an issue on the wheel side.

Could something else be causing this?... like the fork tubes out of alignment?  I'm starting to wonder if the caliper is retracting properly, but maybe the disc is at an angle and that's what's causing the problem.
If so, anyone know how to measure for this and/or how to make sure it's properly aligned?

Sorry for the long post... any assistance is greatly appreciated

Thanks,
Chris



- Chris
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Offline iron_worker

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2012, 10:46:45 AM »
Could you take the disc (or entire front wheel assembly) to a machine shop to have them check how true your disc is? Sounds like the shop you had it at before was mostly incompetent.

IW

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2012, 11:08:04 AM »
Colour your disc with engineers blue or a marker and spin it. That will show up where it's rubbing.
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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2012, 11:20:25 AM »
"I do notice the caliper moving back an forth some.  So I think the O-ring return is working properly (or maybe that's just everything flexing?).  Either it's just not retracting enough, or maybe something else is not lined up properly?

If I carefully adjust the swing arm, I can get the wheel to spin well... and even after a couple very light brake applications.  But once I pull the lever in hard, the brakes don't retract enough."

I just suffered thru this with my project. First let me say when its fixed you'll know its right. you won't have to measure orcompare. You can just tell.

What was wrong with mine (duallies) was one would retract OK, but the other wanted to retract, but couldn't quite do it, i had to tap the other with a rubber mallet to get it to retract.  I had rebuilt and refurbished everything. But when its not right you just have to revisit everything. Turns out a "new" Oring (can't remember where i bot it, but it was assumed to be the right part), was too big in the OD dept. Cramming it into the groove made it too small in the ID dept, and not doing its job of pulling the piston back.

A replacement with a new ORing, from a sealed honda bag with the right part number, fixed it right now.

Good luck.
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Offline harald

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2012, 11:52:29 AM »
It could be the front forks not compressing equally, change fork oil and loosen  the forks and tight them again while the forks are fully compressed (springs out).

Offline MCRider

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2012, 12:07:53 PM »
It could be the front forks not compressing equally, change fork oil and loosen  the forks and tight them again while the forks are fully compressed (springs out).
Huh? Its the brakes. The front end is off the ground fully extended. Should be out of the equation. Can't see as to how it would be an issue even if the bike was rolling around.

Maybe I'm missing your point?
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Offline iron_worker

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2012, 02:15:06 PM »
The only way I can see forks affecting the brakes is if the one fork stuck before being extended fully and the other was fully extended. This would exert a twisting on the axle and who knows what it could do... but I really doubt if he puts this much effort into his brake and this much attention to detail that he would overlook an obviously FUBAR'ed shock.

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Offline Kickstart

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2012, 07:17:21 PM »
Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions!... I'll take a fresh stab at this next weekend.

If I solve it... I'll definitely post back here to let everyone know what the issue was.

- Chris
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Offline knowsnothing

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2012, 12:04:54 PM »
Hey Kickstart,

I am having the same issue.  Front brake drags after some use and gets worse over time.  Currently I have cleaned and rebuilt the master, replaced the wheel bearings, cleaned caliper and replaced O ring, and even measured the 3 rotors i have and put on the best one.  I am still having trouble. 

It seems like voodoo science to me.  I am going to try a different caliper with one of the original O rings i have sitting around.  Then it is on to replacing the lines and maybe even get a new piston.  If that doesn't work, i will be having a large bonfire in my driveway....

Best of luck, I know how frustrating it can be.  I will let you know if i figure out whats going on with mine since the issues sound so similar.
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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2012, 12:52:27 PM »
I get a hell of a lot of noise front my front caliper on my 77 550k. Only when I'm cruising when I apply the brake it goes away. I adjusted and re- adjusted.... I even re-re-adjusted the dead pad. I dont know, everything is new but it just squeeks and squaks. Some times it doesnt do it at all and some times it does it all the time.
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Offline HondanutRider

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2012, 01:03:38 PM »
So you "replaced O ring": Be certain to get the groove meticulously clean.  That is important for it to be able to do its job of pulling the piston back in, ever so slightly, after the brake pressure is released.  A very little bit of dielectric grease around the top exposed edge of the caliper piston helps to keep it moving freely, by blocking moisture and dirt from entering the cylinder.

You should ensure that the caliper mounting hinge is lubricated and free so that it can swing slightly as its supposed to when the brakes are applied and released.  It also needs to be properly adjusted so that the caliper and pads sit centered on the rotor when at rest.

Also, you should ensure that the pad backing plates are free to move/slide in and out in their housing of the caliper.  A light coating (just a bit...it is a grease after all) of anti-seize compound in this area helps to ensure that they don't get hung up, and helps to keep out any future road grit.

And lastly, make the inner pad stick more to the backside of the caliper by applying a dab of high-heat silicone.  That will make it more likely to keep out of the rotors way when not in use, and it helps to act as an anti-squeal compound.

Offline SohRon

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2012, 05:16:19 PM »
Here's a pic of the seal slot. Make sure it's meticulously clean, and be sure to open up the center groove



+1, what he ^ said; the grease on the back of the pads not only cuts down on squealing and chatter, it acts as a "glue" that keeps the pads mated to their seats.

Also, are you setting the fixed pad to .006"?

Good luck!
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Offline buffaloejon

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2012, 05:33:35 AM »
With no real experience on these bike's brakes, but as a guy that designs much larger hydraulic brake systems, check all the seals/o-rings that are in between the caliper and the piston. This has been mentioned above, and it can't be understated. We've had brakes that have 40-50 lbs of force pulling back on the pads (so as to position them the correct distance from the discs) drag a little just because of just ONE old/contaminated/swollen seal or o-ring. I feel like in a smaller system like this a gunky o-ring could cause a bit of dragging.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2012, 05:43:02 AM »
Cleaning the groove: I used the Dremel tool with a black bristle brush attachment which came in the kit. The bristles appear to be a plastic, not wire. It shined up the groove nicely removing corrosion and discolortaion, without removing material I'm pretty sure, making me confident it was clean.

PS: My brakes (duallies) now work as good as ever, great snap back action.  You'll find your problem and be happy. It took me a while. The brakes had sat in a box nearly 17 years, fully assembled with all the crud from years of use acting as corrosive agents.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 05:55:59 AM by MCRider »
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Offline HondanutRider

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2012, 05:51:16 AM »
The one problem/deficiency with the design of these disc brakes, is that unlike most modern designs, there are no seals to prevent ingress of moisture or dirt.  The O-ring (actually rectangular instead of circular in cross-section) is there to provide the piston pull-back and to isolate (ok seal) the hydraulic brake fluid chamber.  As previously described, any interference at this seal will cause it to hang-up, and the only aid to keeping it clean is to try and protect it with a bit of grease - which naturally has to be able to withstand very high temperature.

If you carefully look at the groove in the piston wall of the caliper, where the O-ring sits, you will see that one side is "rounded" and not a square shoulder.  This allows the O-ring to "flex" and roll when the piston is forced outwards under brake application, and then roll back as it pulls the piston in when the brake is released.  If there is any dirt or material hampering this action of "rolling back", then you have a dragging brake.

Offline MCRider

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2012, 05:58:01 AM »
HondaNut: I knew the square section ORing was involved in pulling the piston back, but i never knew the groove was specially shaped as well, till I read it here on a different thread years ago.

This is very good information to disseminate.
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Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline HondanutRider

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2012, 06:16:19 AM »
HondaNut: I knew the square section ORing was involved in pulling the piston back, but i never knew the groove was specially shaped as well, till I read it here on a different thread years ago.

This is very good information to disseminate.

This is illustrated and explained in the Honda Common Service Manual on page 17-4.  That's a good manual to consult for many topics regarding these (and other) bikes.  You can get a copy free...just Google Search for it.

Offline MCRider

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Re: How much front brake drag is normal - CB750
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2012, 06:52:51 AM »
HR: That's a great reference!
http://www.vf750fd.com/vf750f/Honda_Common_Service_Manual.pdf
On my way to 17-4, I skimmed several other topics and am more educated already. I discovered i've been puttig the clutch hub nut on upside down. (11-25)

At 373 pages, Its a handfull.

(Not sure if i got the right one, but 17-4 discussed the ORing and groove.)
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."