Topic: Engine additives - snake oil or magic potion?

[Retro Rocket]

OK... MReick... I would really like to believe this: "proven to be superior to Stabil and other products..."  And I ask this respectfully, can you share what this proof is?

Hey Kickstart, if you had been round long enough to know who MReick is and what he does then maybe you would take his word for it. Mike is the resident high performance head expert and builds a mean engine, if he endorsed snake oil i would buy it.....

[Terry in Australia]

It's a newbie thing Mick, kind of like the new bull vs the old bull thing. I did something similar on a Triumph Rocket III forum telling a guy in the US who manufactures his own exhaust systems that he's full of crap and his pipes aren't worth the 2000 bucks a set that he charges for a BBQ black painted mild steel 3 into 1 system that looks remarkably like the right hand side of a set of V6 headers.

I was shouted down by a bloke in Sydney who said to me, "who do you think you are, you noob, questioning this guys product, don't you know he's done over 300 Dyno runs perfecting this system?" I had to bow out, what the hell was I thinking questioning this guys integrity?

I did ask if he'd post the 300 dyno slips to prove it, but then they all started yelling at me, so I left quietly............ 

[MRieck]

... I also use Star Tron fuel additive which is made to deal specifically with ethanol issues. It has proven to be superior to Stabil and other products in regard to stabilizing fuel, eliminating clogged carbs/injectors.

OK... MReick... I would really like to believe this: "proven to be superior to Stabil and other products..."  And I ask this respectfully, can you share what this proof is?



I disagree with this:

...Big oil isn't going to be going back to increasing the Zinc ...

While it is true they have been reducing Zinc content in car oils due to problems with catalytic converters... This is not necessarily true for motorcycle specific oil.  I think you would be better served by buying a quality motorcycle specific oil from a reputable manufacturer.
 don't have an account - but I believe their conclusion was they were all a waste of money:

http://www.which.co.uk/cars/driving/car-running-costs/can-fuel-additives-save-you-money/

My FJ1200 and Hayabusa both suffered from clogged carbs/injectors after sitting only 4 weeks with Stabil in the tanks. The clogged injectors where verified on a dyno as the bike had lost 10 HP. The injectors were sent to RC Engineering for cleaning and in the report it described in detail flow, spray pattern before and after cleaning....the injectors were in crappy shape.
  The FCR's on the FJ just wouldn't operate properly and had to be broken down and cleaned with Yamaha carb cleaner. During winter storage I treated with Stabil and ran the carbs dry. They clogged again and had to be stripped . I started treating the fuel with Star Tron and the bike has sat over 6 weeks and over the winter with absolutely no problems upon initial startup.
  The bottom line is the Stabil did not prevent the ethanol from clogging the carbs. I have not dynoed the busa but it does not feel like it has lost 10HP (which is why I dynoed the bike....something wasn't right). That's my proof....use of both products under the same circumstances with entirely different results.

[bwaller]

Kickstart, I won't pretend to know much about oil and I don't want to push this into an oil discussion. I worked as a mechanic in a Honda shop for five years (mind you this was in the 70's) and we used several different name brand oils through the years. I saw firsthand different colours, smells, etc. from the same viscosity oils, and that was a lot of oil. The only brand that was always consistant was Castrol so I've always stuck with it. I now use their 4T motorcycle specific and add 2oz of ZDDPlus per oil change after each race in my little race engine. (1/2 of what that stuff recommends)

That piece you posted is filled with info and it actually bogged me down until I eventually breezed through to the final page. One wouldn't think with all the information generated that it should be BS, but I have seen similar and always by an Oil supplier. You have to wonder. Regardless, my experience is dated I agree, but your suggestion of motorcycle specific oil is wise. I came to this conclusion on my own finally. The Zn issue I still need to digest, because the companies won't devulge, so for now I'm comfortable in my skin. 

[jawntybull]

Seems like I started something here... 

I reckon where there's smoke there's fire, so I'll stick to good quality oil changed often, and premium fuel without ethanol. Overhauling the carbs, a good tune up and clearing the blocked breather hose has worked wonders for the bike; its running like a train now. Thanks for all the comments!

[WarwickE36]

I hate gimmicks, I avoid them at all costs.  Then our local Amsoil Rep gave me 7 quarts of Amsoil full synthetic and a full synthetic filter.  I put it in one of my companies town cars with 297K on the motor.  With regular motorcraft synthetic blend and a napa gold filter it burned 2qts per 3000 miles.  I checked the amsoil at 2k, no loss, 3k no loss and still looked brand new, 5k some signs of breakdown, changed it at 10k and it was full.  No loss whatsoever.  I now use it in EVERY car we have.  We have 21 cars in our fleet now.  I am a FIRM believer.   That being said I dont use it in my bike 

[Kickstart]

My FJ1200 and Hayabusa both suffered from clogged carbs/injectors after sitting only 4 weeks with Stabil in the tanks. The clogged injectors where verified on a dyno as the bike had lost 10 HP. The injectors were sent to RC Engineering for cleaning and in the report it described in detail flow, spray pattern before and after cleaning....the injectors were in crappy shape.
  The FCR's on the FJ just wouldn't operate properly and had to be broken down and cleaned with Yamaha carb cleaner. During winter storage I treated with Stabil and ran the carbs dry. They clogged again and had to be stripped . I started treating the fuel with Star Tron and the bike has sat over 6 weeks and over the winter with absolutely no problems upon initial startup.
  The bottom line is the Stabil did not prevent the ethanol from clogging the carbs. I have not dynoed the busa but it does not feel like it has lost 10HP (which is why I dynoed the bike....something wasn't right). That's my proof....use of both products under the same circumstances with entirely different results.

Thanks for sharing your experiences MRieck. 

I also like to fill up the tank and drain the carbs for the winter... but I'm never quite sure what to do about the gas in the tank.

...
That piece you posted is filled with info and it actually bogged me down until I eventually breezed through to the final page. One wouldn't think with all the information generated that it should be BS, but I have seen similar and always by an Oil supplier. You have to wonder. Regardless, my experience is dated I agree, but your suggestion of motorcycle specific oil is wise. I came to this conclusion on my own finally. The Zn issue I still need to digest, because the companies won't devulge, so for now I'm comfortable in my skin. 

Hi bwaller,
yeah, I included that link as a good example of quantitative data supporting Amsoil claims.  I also thought it was a very interesting read in what to look for in a good motorycyle oil. 

[Tanqueracer]

Most additives are snake oil . I had an engineer from one of the major auto manufacturers tell me if any of it worked they'd put it in all new vehicles to beat the CAFE (no pun intended) rules. Made sense to me.

I'm a true believer in Amsoil as I have stated in another thread somewhere on here. 230K on a '96 V-8 Explorer (only change the oil once a year) and 231K on a 1995 F-350 Dually. Amsoil's (motorcycle formula)in my 1975 F-1 (only 2500 miles on that oil so far).  Our 1999 Trans Am has 53K on Amsoil.
I'm convinced at this point you'd never have to change it. I haven't changed it in my lawnmower in over 12 years!!

The zinc/phosphate stuff is true. We lost several cams in small bore racing cars(British) because of the manufacturers taking it out and not telling anyone. After we figured out what had happened and switched to an oil with high zinc/phosphate content our problems disapeared.

[81cb650]

Interesting thread,  at the honda dealer today They were trying to sell me "Star Tron" gas additive, neutralizes ethanol from fuel. The thing that makes me interested in it is that fact they claim it will get rid of lacquer build up. my bike has a lacquer like build up inside the block where the carbs attatch. So is this what they are claiming it will get rid of? 

[Terry in Australia]

Most additives are snake oil . I had an engineer from one of the major auto manufacturers tell me if any of it worked they'd put it in all new vehicles to beat the CAFE (no pun intended) rules. Made sense to me.

I'm a true believer in Amsoil as I have stated in another thread somewhere on here. 230K on a '96 V-8 Explorer (only change the oil once a year) and 231K on a 1995 F-350 Dually. Amsoil's (motorcycle formula)in my 1975 F-1 (only 2500 miles on that oil so far).  Our 1999 Trans Am has 53K on Amsoil.
I'm convinced at this point you'd never have to change it. I haven't changed it in my lawnmower in over 12 years!!

The zinc/phosphate stuff is true. We lost several cams in small bore racing cars(British) because of the manufacturers taking it out and not telling anyone. After we figured out what had happened and switched to an oil with high zinc/phosphate content our problems disapeared.

Mmmmmm, I have a few issues with an engineer from one of the car manufacturers saying that if additives worked they'd use them, when it's common knowledge that cars are designed with inbuilt redundancy, i.e., they are designed to eventually fail.

If they weren't, we'd all be driving around in 50 year old cars still in mint condition, still running as well as they did on the day they rolled off the showroom floor, and the auto industry would be dead. Why would a car manufacturer want their product to last forever?

Amsoil, as far as I can understand, is a base oil with additional additives, so I don't really see the difference between buying additives and adding them to your oil, or buying an oil with additives added. Cheers, Terry.

[dave500]

""I'm convinced at this point you'd never have to change it. I haven't changed it in my lawnmower in over 12 years!!""

you cant never change your oil,itll be full of unburnt fuel and water and acid and by products and etc,itll break down by itself over time,its cohesion and adhesion properties will go down no matter how much additives you use,,is this now an oil thread?

[Tanqueracer]

Obviously neither one of you above have studied Amsoil products or fully understand what I said.

The point the engineer made was about fuel economy not longevity. If any of the fuel/oil additives actually INCREASED mileage they would use it because it would allow them to meet and/or pass the CAFE standards more easily and save them millions. In short, they don't work or the manufacturers would use them. The same can be said for all those super spark plugs. They don't do anything either except cost the consumer unreasonable amounts of money.

And yes, my 1996 Explorer does run as good as the day I purchased it. I intend to keep it and my 1995 F-350 (which runs and pulls just like it did when new) forever. It just proves that American made cars will last a lifetime if maintained properly. But you are right about design obsolescence. Introduced by Japanese car manufacturers, it now seems to be the industry standard worldwide.

As far as I understand it, Amsoil is a long chain molecule reverse refined from propane. The molecules are designed to trap and hold large quantities of byproducts produced by burning gasoline in an internal combustion engine.
Tell you what Dave500, Why don't you buy some Amsoil, put it in a vehicle of your choice, buy the sample kit, have it tested periodically and see what you come up with? Otherwise your opinion of Amsoil is worthless.

I've also noticed that most of the "experts" on this forum take a dim view to dissenting opinions. What's up with that? And why can't someone make a comment about something slightly different in a thread without being criticized about it? Is there some sort of "thread protocol" I"m not aware of? Just saying.
I guess this is now an oil/fuel/spark plug/manufacturer thread

[mick7504]

Obviously neither one of you above have studied Amsoil products or fully understand what I said.

The point the engineer made was about fuel economy not longevity. If any of the fuel/oil additives actually INCREASED mileage they would use it because it would allow them to meet and/or pass the CAFE standards more easily and save them millions. In short, they don't work or the manufacturers would use them. The same can be said for all those super spark plugs. They don't do anything either except cost the consumer unreasonable amounts of money.

And yes, my 1996 Explorer does run as good as the day I purchased it. I intend to keep it and my 1995 F-350 (which runs and pulls just like it did when new) forever. It just proves that American made cars will last a lifetime if maintained properly. But you are right about design obsolescence. Introduced by Japanese car manufacturers, it now seems to be the industry standard worldwide.

As far as I understand it, Amsoil is a long chain molecule reverse refined from propane. The molecules are designed to trap and hold large quantities of byproducts produced by burning gasoline in an internal combustion engine.
Tell you what Dave500, Why don't you buy some Amsoil, put it in a vehicle of your choice, buy the sample kit, have it tested periodically and see what you come up with? Otherwise your opinion of Amsoil is worthless.

I've also noticed that most of the "experts" on this forum take a dim view to dissenting opinions. What's up with that? And why can't someone make a comment about something slightly different in a thread without being criticized about it? Is there some sort of "thread protocol" I"m not aware of? Just saying.
I guess this is now an oil/fuel/spark plug/manufacturer thread

I thought that others opinions should be respected.
I thought that was respectful.
That's what I thought.
But that could be worthless too.

[Tanqueracer]

""I'm convinced at this point you'd never have to change it. I haven't changed it in my lawnmower in over 12 years!!""

you cant never change your oil,itll be full of unburnt fuel and water and acid and by products and etc,itll break down by itself over time,its cohesion and adhesion properties will go down no matter how much additives you use,,is this now an oil thread?

Pretty much says to me I don't know what I'm talking about. But hey, maybe he had another meaning. And besides that the title simply says "additives".

[ekpent]

12 years in a lawnmower does seem a little excessive. I don't think he was looking to pick a fight though.Lets hope this does not turn into a pissing match,for some reason oil seems to disintegrate into that   

[WarwickE36]

My oil is bigger than your oil.  And you wife loves it.

[mick7504]

""I'm convinced at this point you'd never have to change it. I haven't changed it in my lawnmower in over 12 years!!""

you cant never change your oil,itll be full of unburnt fuel and water and acid and by products and etc,itll break down by itself over time,its cohesion and adhesion properties will go down no matter how much additives you use,,is this now an oil thread?

Pretty much says to me I don't know what I'm talking about. But hey, maybe he had another meaning. And besides that the title simply says "additives".

It's not so much about that mate.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion and that's a good thing.
Agreeing or disagreeing is another matter.
That's all my point was about.
I respect your point of view.

[Holden]

Otherwise your opinion of Amsoil is worthless.

...

I've also noticed that most of the "experts" on this forum take a dim view to dissenting opinions. What's up with that? And why can't someone make a comment about something slightly different in a thread without being criticized about it? Is there some sort of "thread protocol" I"m not aware of? Just saying.

Talk about hypocrisy.

[Holden]

As far as I understand it, Amsoil is a long chain molecule reverse refined from propane. The molecules are designed to trap and hold large quantities of byproducts produced by burning gasoline in an internal combustion engine.

I'm not a lubricants engineer, but I know enough to know that this would not mean that you don't have to change your oil.  Vehicle longevity is dependent on a number of factors, one of them being quality lubrication of internal engine components.  There is no way that Amsoil could absorb all the moisture, acids, dirt, and harmful by-products of combustion without ever having to change it.

Amsoil is multi-level marketing, like Amway.  The independent laboratory tests  I've seen rate Amsoil as a high quality lubricant, but I've never seen it come out on top in independent testing.  If I'm wrong, please provide links to your independent sources.  The way it's sold, it should always be far and above the best in every independent laboratory test. 

Please don't bother with links to the 4 ball wear scar test or anything like that.  It's a gimmick that has no direct relation to how an oil actually performs in an internal combustion engine.  Coca-Cola does well in the 4 ball wear scar test, but I don't think it would perform well as an engine lubricant.

[Tanqueracer]

""I'm convinced at this point you'd never have to change it. I haven't changed it in my lawnmower in over 12 years!!""

you cant never change your oil,it'll be full of unburnt fuel and water and acid and by products and etc,itll break down by itself over time,its cohesion and adhesion properties will go down no matter how much additives you use,,is this now an oil thread?

Pretty much says to me I don't know what I'm talking about. But hey, maybe he had another meaning. And besides that the title simply says "additives".

It's not so much about that mate.
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion and that's a good thing.
Agreeing or disagreeing is another matter.
That's all my point was about.
I respect your point of view.

I respect yours as well. My point was, without being hypocritical, is that most opinions posted in this forum that are not generated by the "experts"  usually generate a negative response. I was just conveying my experiences with Amsoil and do not feel a basic explanation of how oil breaks down helpful nor appropriate. For those of us new to the forum we have no way of knowing what was discussed previously. Personally I don't have time to weed through over 300,000 posts before I make a comment, If it's been discussed before, so what?

Yes Amsoil is a multi-level marketing company like Amway, Snap-On, Dri-Wash-N-Guard and dozens of others.  That doesn't speak to the quality of the products in any of the cases.

Like I said, I was just conveying my experiences with Amsoil which has far exceeded any expectation I had of the product. I do not sell nor do I have any vested interest in the Amsoil company.
Having said that, I believe in the products whole-heartidly and will continue to use them for as long as I have cars and bikes. In my humble opinion they perform better than advertised.
 If those of you who do believe the Amsoil product or any other for that matter, is of no value then don't use them. But say so in a constructive manner without insulting someones basic intelligence.
The hypocrisy comment perfectly illustrates my point. Why denigrate someone else's personal experience?. I'm sorry but I just don't get it.

From now on I'll keep my experiences and my comments to myself.

[ekpent]

Alright and well written Everyone has conveyed an opinion in a friendly way so I say GROUP HUG

[Duke McDukiedook]

I am by no means an expert on ANYTHING and if anyone tries to put that label on me, well we'll have a discussion.

What I do know is that Amsoil, Royal Purple, insert other high priced smaller boutique oil peddler along with the big oil manufacturers get their oil from the same places. And like Dave and Terry said they refine it maybe a little more or add their additives to their liking or disliking- FACT.

If that is worth the double in price or more over the standard fare oil and makes you feel better at the end of the day, well bully you. I'll just stick with my Castrol synthetic blend and full synthetic in my bikes and maybe add a little zinc additive, save a few bucks and bid you good day sir.

[Holden]

I am by no means an expert on ANYTHING and if anyone tries to put that label on me, well we'll have a discussion.

What I do know is that Amsoil, Royal Purple, insert other high priced smaller boutique oil peddler along with the big oil manufacturers get their oil from the same places. And like Dave and Terry said they refine it maybe a little more or add their additives to their liking or disliking- FACT.

If that is worth the double in price or more over the standard fare oil and makes you feel better at the end of the day, well bully you. I'll just stick with my Castrol synthetic blend and full synthetic in my bikes and maybe add a little zinc additive, save a few bucks and bid you good day sir.

Well put.  But since 1990, group III mineral oils are allowed to be marketed as full-synthetic, which means there is not really a difference between a high quality group II oil and oils marketed as "semi-synthetic" besides price.  Most semi-synthetics are group II mineral oil with some added group III mineral oil.  By themselves, group III mineral oils (e.g., Castrol Syntech or Edge) are almost as good as PAO-based synthetics, but as used as an additive to a group II oil, thus making a semi-synthetic, there is not much of an advantage over straight group II oils, other than a higher profit margin for the manufacturer.  But like you said, whatever makes you feel better. 

I'm no expert, but I've done a little reading to understand the differences in oils.  My opinion is free and you get what you pay for, right?

[WarwickE36]

People are entitled to their opinions...

Here's mine:  I have a fleet of 21 cars,  as I stated before.  13 of which are Lincoln Town Car Sedans.  Mileage on these cars ranges between 100K and 300K.  I have done side by side comparisons with MANY different oil and filter combinations on cars with very similar mileages.  The CLEAR winner is Amsoil full synthetic with an Amsoil Full Synthetic filter.  You can state what you've read until the cows come home.  To me that's like saying I've read about how to brew beer now Im an expert brewmaster.  We all have friends that read magazines about tuning cars are somehow now an expert.   Until you have experimented, failed and learned, what do you really know?  You know to be cynical because you have your doubts.  To me the numbers are pointless without the proof.  The proof if real life application.  I have seen it first hand.  I was astonished at the results.  I dont want to offend anyone.  It just seems that the people saying that Amsoil, or any other highly marketed oil product is garbage or overpriced bases their opinion on what they've read.  To me the expense is justified.  We buy the Amsoil in bulk.  its about $780 for 30 gallons.  Our cars take 7 quarts for an oil change that works out to $45.50 in oil.  Plus i believe its $15 for a filter.  Grand total of $60.50 for an oil and filter.  That O/C is good for a minimum for 10K.  Think of what you pay for 1 oil change of conventional oil.  List price on NAPA 5w30 is 5.11 per quart.  so for 7 quarts that's $36 plus a filter at $11 for a total of $47.  That O/C is good for 3K.  multiply that by 3 to get you almost to 10K  $141.  Way I see it I'm saving $80.50.  Not to mention I am not spending all my time changing oil and I can make more use of my time doing preventative maintenance and waxing etc.... Just my .02, I know this wont change anyone's mind but I feel its a logical argument for the value of good oil.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Opinions, that is all we have here.

Show me the lab results on the same vehicle after the same amount of mileage with regular whatever oil and your super oil and I could hang my hat on that. Run that test just to silence us nonbelievers.

Feels like it did on the first day I drove it does not move me one bit.