Author Topic: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.  (Read 2163 times)

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Offline DoctorMuffn

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Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« on: August 06, 2011, 03:47:02 PM »
Compression readings are 120psi for Cyl 1, 3, and 4. No 2 reads 90. Specification is 130-160 per the Clymer manual directives. A wet compression test on No 2 brings it up to 160. Here's the question... When I assembled the 1st set of rings and piston of the kit I had a bear of a time getting the top and second rings down over the piston and into their grooves. I had to pry slightly, carefully between the ring and piston with a small, slotted screw driver, because I didn't have the ring expander. I feared this might mar the ring groove so I checked the ring-to-landing clearance on the next piston before assembly to find no gap and a very snug fit. The specification per Clymer is a clearance of no more than .0071in between the top ring and its landing, .0065 for the second, and .0045 for the oil ring. I installed the rings on all of the pistons and they were very difficult to rotate to the 120deg offset positions; hence they were not very free in their grooves. Would this cause low compression, poor sealing, and oil to rise into the combustion chamber?

Background: I picked up most of my parts from a certain retailer and I’ve had to replace a few of them for manufacturing defects. I got two "sour" batches of aluminum valvespring retainers which are sold with the valvespring upgrade kit. I've had to disassemble twice since the original assembly of this F motor, and I'm still having trouble. If interested please read on... Many details follow that might narrow the responses or address certain questions.

Assembly (F motor replaces blown K motor). Disassembly, machining, cleaning, and assembly are performed by myself while aiding in an engine rebuilding class I've taken two times previously.  I machined the head and cylinder surfaces to level out measured warpage of up to .006in and I generated a surface Ra of less than 6.0 microinches to as low as 1.9 microinches; plenty smooth and I have pictures. I slotted the cam gear to compensate for reduction of distance between cam center line and crank center line. I did a valve job using our machines and tested it by pulling no less than 25mmHg vacuum at each port. I reused the stock cam but installed aftermarket valves, valvesprings and aluminum retainers. The heads and cutting tools were too big to bore and hone the cylinder block and I was looking to save money so I bottlebrush honed the cylinders and reused pistons and rings (I would have replaced the rings at least, but I couldn't find standard-sized replacements at the time).

1st disassembly involved replacing the first set of aluminum retainers with a second set of aluminum retainers. The first set showed grinding wear on the upper face where they had risen up along the keepers and contacted the rocker arms. As they spun around the rocker scraped the whole upper face until it finally dug in and created a grove. NO GOOD. The valve was ultimately held open and compression was lost taking power along with it. It was a very palpable feeling much like the K behaved right before I blew it up due to oil starvation. *At this disassembly and rebuild I had the cylinder block professionally over-bored and honed to match the $200 .25mm over piston kit purchased from said retailer.* New gaskets all around and an APE studs upgrade to boot.

2nd disassembly occurred because the second set of valvespring retainers showed the characteristic wear described above after a month of service. When I removed the caps to adjust the valves I found this wear and immediately knew disassembly had to happen. I sourced stock, stamped steel retainers and a cam from Curt Jordan of Jordan Engineering in Oceanside, CA. I went no further than removing the head to disassemble it and replace the retainers (the cam was replaced upon assembly). *I reused the head gasket this time.*

I synchronized the carbs and tried to dial in the mixture. No 2 was really dark and I suspected it was causing the fouling and loss of power I had been experiencing. I thin the mixture in No 2 only and repeatedly to no avail; still black as soot. I get stranded on the freeway as the bike bogs to a stop recurringly but runs again after a while sitting. This is something that had occurred between my 1st and 2nd disassemblies as well where I had a new head gasket. This leads me to conclude no issue reusing the old one at the 2nd assembly. I attributed this problem originally to the valvespring retainers. However, those have been replaced. And now I know it's not a rich fouling as I've leaned the pilot jet screw almost entirely out. I now suspect oil fouling. I set the pilot jet to 1 3/4 turns out per Clymer as a preliminary setting. I heated up the engine to operating temperature then pulled the plugs to see No 2 black as can be. And attempt to reseat the rings has failed, and I have also been experiencing bogging and smoke billowing from the exhaust; I'm not really experienced with the color reads on smoke, but it's mostly white with tinges of blue (I know blue indicates oil being burned while white means water/coolant.; but our engines are air cooled so that's moot)...
That's it... Refer to compression figures and question above. I’ll add pictures and any other details that may be requested.

Offline camelman

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2011, 03:59:02 PM »
I think your rings are stuck in their grooves. If you keep running like that you could break the rings, which will mar your new bore job.

I am currently running a reused head gasket. It had a few thermal cycles on it and about 400 miles when I R&Red the head. It doesn't leak at all. I don't recommend it though.

Buy your pistons from a better supplier, and tell us who you bought the current ones from.

A stuck ring will cause oil consumption.
1972 350f rider: sold
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Offline trueblue

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2011, 04:40:34 PM »
White smoke can also be caused by raw fuel going through an engine, if it is being partially burnt it comes out black but if it is just being pumped through it comes out white, and blue is oil.
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Offline DoctorMuffn

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2011, 02:22:37 AM »
Thanks for these responses. Let me disassemble and confirm the problem first before throwing the retailer under the bus. Sorry... it just seems to be the fair way to approach this issue and your request, camelman. It could be my fault after all.

And thanks for the explanation of the different shades of smoke and what they indicate, trueblue. I get good spark and firing on all four most of the time until the engine bogs to a stall when the problem occurs. Lots of smoke at stop lights when idling (especially after long, hot rides). And lots of smoke on throttle closed high rpm engine braking decelerations. It's mostly white, but I think there are hues of blue.

I also get problems of engine stumble or hesitation at immediate, full application of throttle - snap WOT.

Thanks to both of you for reading through my post and responding.
Cheers

Offline ekpent

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2011, 05:05:44 AM »
Are you sure that the oil scraper ring is oriented properly on all 4 cylinders.If it is in upside down the piston will push oil up towards head and not down.Don't ask me how I learned that one many years ago but I sure made some big smoke for awhile.

Offline DoctorMuffn

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2011, 11:10:07 AM »
Hehehe that's a good idea, ekpent, and don't worry I won't ask. I'll check for that too when I pull it apart.

Offline dave500

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2011, 02:24:43 AM »
have a close look at the valves again,you might have gotten a dud job on the rebore?too loose clearances?

Offline DoctorMuffn

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2011, 11:22:14 AM »
Sorry to take so long. Here are some pics:
The dark plug is from cylinder 2. The scuffed piston is number 2. The rings were free in their grooves when the cylinder block came off and I was able to check them. However, the cylinder block was a bear to "coax" off.

Offline DoctorMuffn

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2011, 11:30:22 AM »
With the block finally off I cleaned the bores and took a look. The crosshatch was still in all except for number 2 which had scores along the up and down axis of the bore. But upon closer inspection a ring issue became moot and I could clearly see where my oil was coming from. The c-clip came out and was wedged between the cylinder and piston. That would explain the scuffing of the piston and the scoring of the wall while the gouges explain where the oil was coming from. And then...

Offline DoctorMuffn

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2011, 11:40:53 AM »
The c-clip coming out of its groove must have been my fault. I must have rushed the rebuild and not installed it correctly. I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention or something. But then I see what I'm showing next while removing the pistons from their respective rods. Number 2 had both c-clips to lock the wrist pin in. But the one which caused the gouges in the wall had split in half; the inner half is yet to be found while the outer half was still well-seated in its groove. You can see both c-clips next to each other; the difference in thickness is not an optical illusion. The clip was cut in half (I'm guessing by the wrist pin itself) while the engine was running. Unbelievable.

I guess it wasn't entirely my fault. Was this a manufacturing issue? Maybe I broke it in too hard... As shocked as I was to find the problem I couldn't help but laugh in amazement. There was some laughter of relief too now that I had closure on the cause of the fouled plug and sputtering.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 11:43:40 AM by DoctorMuffn »

Offline DoctorMuffn

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2011, 12:04:32 PM »
I guess I've got a couple options now...
1. Reuse the block by sleeving it and going .25mm over again. Then I can install stock Honda pistons and rings (and c-clips) I trust.
2. Reuse the block and go Wiseco 836. Maybe it will clean up without needing a sleeve.

Note: I prefer to reuse the block because it's what I resurfaced/decked myself to the finish noted above.

3. Hop on Craigslist and pick up another bike to utilize for parts (or use this one for parts).
4. Throw the bike in the trash and buy a set of golf clubs.


Offline DoctorMuffn

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2011, 12:11:25 PM »
Curt with Jordan Engineering just called me regarding correspondence via email this past weekend (perfect timing). He told me I'd have to resurface with a new sleeve anyway. We're gonna check on some Wiseco or JE sets to overbore. Hopefully the wall will clean up. Hmmm... This bike is more expensive than the used RC51 I wanted in the first place. Now I'm going to have to keep it forever; give it to my granddaughter when she comes along.

Some pics of the head resurfacing I did:

Offline dave500

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 01:02:43 PM »
bummer,breaking it in too hard wont cause those clips to dislodge,im guessing they were new,not quite seated,what brand were they?once one clip is in the wrist pin (gudgeon pin)should be fitted and pushed in up against it making sure the clip groove isnt partialy covered,the clip can look seated but be only part way into that groove,let us know how it goes ,better luck next time muffn.

Offline camelman

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2011, 04:16:41 PM »
Tough break. I almost ended up in the sane situation a while back. One of the circlips that came with a 466 kit felt odd when I installed it. I went ahead and finished the engine assembly, but thankfully got nervous and pulled it all apart again. The circlip was weak and had yielded upon install. I bought a replacement and reassembled. I'm glad I did after seeing your disaster.

I hope your final engine rocks!

Camelman
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline scottly

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2011, 10:21:44 PM »
My best guess is the #2 carb was flooding the the cylinder with fuel, washing the oil off the piston. The scoring on the piston is perpendicular to the scoring in the cylinder...
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Offline dave500

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Re: Several Recent Rebuilds: Compression is low. Help please.
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2011, 01:39:12 AM »
that scoring isnt fuel flooding its physical i think,if it was fuel itll glaze all around the bore nearly ,not local like shown,a few fine grains of the clip probably have gone up and down a few thousand times in that spot.