Topic: Regulator Rectifier Test - It looks like a bad RR??

[TicoCafe]

Hi guys...Trying to pin-point the electrical charging issue on the Bike (1982 CB650).  I need verification that the RR is BAD based on the test below...I think the RR is BAD but I want to verify. Any help is appreciated!

I want to verify that the RR is GOOD or BAD so I performend the Ohms & Diode Test with a volt meter:

Test 1-- Black Tester lead to White/Red Wire (small connector) AND Red Tester lead to each one of the Yellow Wires---> Result of TEST:  "1" (1 is like the voltmetere is NOT hooked up to anything) See Pic 1
 
Test 2-- Black Tester lead to Green Wire (small connector) AND Red Tester lead to each one of the Yellow Wires---> Result of TEST:  "1" (1 is like the voltmetere is NOT hooked up to anything) See Pic 2

Test 3-- is a DIODE Test. Red Tester Lead to White/Red wire and Black Tester Lead to each of the Yellow Wires. Result of TEST: "1" (1 is like the voltmetere is NOT hooked up to anything)

Is this enough Test to VERIFY that the RR is BAD???

Test 1


Test 2


Test 3

[curemode2002]

Not sure on the testing hopefully Two Tired will see the post soon he will know for sure. One other big thing to check is your stators rotor they should get 4.2-6.0 Ohms between rings. Mine reads at 3.96 when cold but after my 650 warms up it drops to 0 on my meter and that blew my RR.

[TicoCafe]

Not sure on the testing hopefully Two Tired will see the post soon he will know for sure. One other big thing to check is your stators rotor they should get 4.2-6.0 Ohms between rings. Mine reads at 3.96 when cold but after my 650 warms up it drops to 0 on my meter and that blew my RR.

I did test the Ohms between the Rings and it reads within spec at 4.7 Ohms.

The Rotor, Stator, and RR were all replaced (all new parts) 1 month by the guy who sold me the bike.  He could not locate the issue...so now I am starting from scratch to pin point the problem.

[TwoTired]

All the rectifier tests use the diode test function, and are tested with both probe polarities.
The rectifier connection are the red/white to yellow and the Green to yellow.  You will have 12 readings.  Half of them will show a low reading and the other half of them will show a very high reading (as if unconnected, sorta).
The six diodes should only pass current in one polarity direction.

I'm not sure how to test the regulator section of the RR passively, without a known good one to compare readings.

Have you done the ground work for troubleshooting?
Known good fully charged battery?
RPM vs Voltage chart at 1K RPM increments?
Are you certain power is going to the Regulator and is accurately represents true battery Voltage?
Have you noted the voltage passed to the slip rings at 1K RPM increments?
Have you verified connections between the stator yellows and the RR?

What general symptoms are you troubleshooting?

[TicoCafe]

The rectifier connection are the red/white to yellow and the Green to yellow.  You will have 12 readings.  Half of them will show a low reading and the other half of them will show a very high reading (as if unconnected, sorta).
The six diodes should only pass current in one polarity direction.

I did all 12 readings and the Volt Meter showed the "1".  I also did the all the DIODE tests and the volt meter also showed "1". Is this sufficient information to verify that the RR is BAD???

Have you done the ground work for troubleshooting?

I will be cleaning all the ground and cable connections tonight to confirm we have good connections in the system.

Known good fully charged battery?

Yes

RPM vs Voltage chart at 1K RPM increments?
Are you certain power is going to the Regulator and is accurately represents true battery Voltage?
Have you noted the voltage passed to the slip rings at 1K RPM increments?
Have you verified connections between the stator yellows and the RR?

Its on the list...and Ill report back[/quote]

What general symptoms are you troubleshooting?

Bike dies after 30 min of riding. Bought the bike last week and the previouis owner changed all new parts (stator, rotor, battery, and RR) and still does not charge.

[TwoTired]

The rectifier connection are the red/white to yellow and the Green to yellow.  You will have 12 readings.  Half of them will show a low reading and the other half of them will show a very high reading (as if unconnected, sorta).
The six diodes should only pass current in one polarity direction.

I did all 12 readings and the Volt Meter showed the "1".  I also did the all the DIODE tests and the volt meter also showed "1". Is this sufficient information to verify that the RR is BAD???

If your report is accurate, either your meter or your rectifier is bad.  (I assume you meant ohm meter rather than volt meter.)
Very strange that all 6 diodes would fail at the same time in the same way.  So, I'm skeptical of the report.

What reading does your meter indicate with the probe tips touching each other vs. not touching anything while on the diode test scale setting?

(FYI, the "200" scale position is NOT used to test diodes in the rectifier.)

Cheers,

[TicoCafe]

Very strange that all 6 diodes would fail at the same time in the same way.  So, I'm skeptical of the report.

I agree so I re-tested the Diodes.

Here are the Results:

1) Red Multimeter Wire to Red/White. Black meter wire with ALL 3 yellows resulted in "1."

2) Black Meter wire to Red/White. Red Meter wire to all 3 yellows resulted in:
Yellow 1 = .497
Yellow 2 = .534
Yellow 3 = .533

3) Black Meter wire to Black wire. Red meter wire to ALL 3 yellow resulted in "1."

4) Red Meter wire to Black wire. Black meter wire to all 3 yellows resulted:
Yellow 1 = 1.67
Yellow 2 = 1.67
Yellow 3 = 1.68

It looks like a bad RR to me or not???
Funny because the guy supposedly replaced it and it looks new. Who knows maybe something else fried it.

What reading does your meter indicate with the probe tips touching each other vs. not touching anything while on the diode test scale setting?

The probe tips Touching each other reads ".000" and beeps for continuity and when they are NOT touching it reads "1." like the photo above (Test 3 photo).

Cheers!

[TwoTired]

The rectifier diodes connect between the yellows,  red/wht, and GREEN.  Note my test instructions earlier.

One of your black wires is regulator connection (output to the rotor), the other is a voltage supply to it from the key switch.

Did you assume black was ground, or a battery NEG connection?  That's not Honda convention.  Green wires serve that purpose.

FYI, looks like your meter is doing the right thing, and will give you meaningful results if you probe the correct points.

Cheers,

[TicoCafe]

The rectifier diodes connect between the yellows,  red/wht, and GREEN.  Note my test instructions earlier.

Got it! Not sure what I was thinking... oops.


Here is a summary of all 12 Diode Tests:

1) Red Multimeter Wire to Red/White. Black meter wire with ALL 3 yellows resulted in "1."

2) Black Meter wire to Red/White. Red Meter wire to all 3 yellows resulted in:
Yellow 1 = .497
Yellow 2 = .534
Yellow 3 = .533

3) Red Meter to GREEN. Black Meter to ALL 3 Yellows:
Yellow 1 = .523
Yellow 2 = .525
Yellow 3 = .542

4) Black Meter to GREEN. Red Meter to ALL 3 Yellows resulted in "1."

Hope this helps to give us better results...

Thanks

[TwoTired]

Looks like your rectifier section is doing the job correctly.

I don't have enough data to assess the regulator section, though.

Have you checked the rotor resistance on the wires in the plug that connects to the regulator, (disconnected of course)?

Cheers,

[Pinhead]

nvm

[TicoCafe]

Looks like your rectifier section is doing the job correctly.

GOOD News! 

Have you checked the rotor resistance on the wires in the plug that connects to the regulator, (disconnected of course)?

I checked Continuity for all 3 Yellows and it checked OK.  Then I checked resistance between all 3 Yellows and it was showing between .5 to .6 ohms. According to manual its within spec!

I also checked resistance between Black and White wires on the same plug as the Yellow wires... I'm not sure if that was also part of the test... Resistance was 41.7 ohms.

Resistance between the Slip Rings reads within spec at 4.7 Ohms.

Cheers,
[/quote]

[TwoTired]

I also checked resistance between Black and White wires on the same plug as the Yellow wires... I'm not sure if that was also part of the test... Resistance was 41.7 ohms.

Resistance between the Rings and it reads within spec at 4.7 Ohms.

Well, that's a problem.  The black and white wires should read the same or nearly the same resistance and the slip rings.  Best track down bad brush connections, connectors issues, or otherwise bad wiring.

Cheers,

[TicoCafe]

I also checked resistance between Black and White wires on the same plug as the Yellow wires... I'm not sure if that was also part of the test... Resistance was 41.7 ohms.

Resistance between the Rings and it reads within spec at 4.7 Ohms.

Well, that's a problem.  The black and white wires should read the same or nearly the same resistance and the slip rings.  Best track down bad brush connections, connectors issues, or otherwise bad wiring.

Cheers,

Yeah...that looked like a high reading when I measured but was not sure it was also part of the test. I will check parts tonight and report back. 

Funny thing is that all the parts inside the charging system area are "new" but it may have been installed incorrectly by the previous owner.

Thanks for the input and guidance so far...!

Pura Vida!

[Duanob]

Follow this guy's instructions they are easy and simple to follow.

http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/FAQ.html

He also carries great replacement parts if you need them. I got to a point where his  diagnosis said "bad wire or ground" So I took the electrical panel off the bike and found two of the main wires and a connector close to completely fried. The red/white main wire coming out of the rectifier on the back side of ther plug all the way to the solenoid and the main green ground wire from the bike to the Alt plug. Funny but when I tested those wires for resistance it showed none. I replaced them and got a least a charge again (12.5dcv). I still don't have full charging capacity (13.8dcv) but at least my battery isn't draining when I ride the bike.

[TicoCafe]

Well, that's a problem.  The black and white wires should read the same or nearly the same resistance and the slip rings.  Best track down bad brush connections, connectors issues, or otherwise bad wiring.

Cheers,

Took the brushes apart and put everything back together.  Resistance between the BLACK and WHITE wires are now reading 6.1 Ohms. Resistance between the rings read at 4.7 ohms. Is that within spec?

If so what is the next test... RPM vs Voltage at 1k increments? I will need some guidance if that is the case.

Cheers

[TwoTired]

Did you find something wrong?  Or, did something correct itself while you disturbed/ rebuilt the pathways between slip rings and Black and white terminals?  I'd worry about intermittents if you didn't find a smoking gun cause.

You should clean/polish the slip rings with something like 400 or 600 grit abrasive.
Put it back together, make sure the battery is good and fully charged.   Then record the voltages at 1000 RPM increments up to 5K.

If the high resistance was THE problem, you should be good to go now that it corrected.  If there is yet another problem, you will have to note the voltage across the Black and White vs RPM, to see if the Reg is doing it's job correctly.

Cheers,

[scottly]

Check the length of the brushes for excessive wear: it was a common problem with the later charging systems.

[Pinhead]

Took the brushes apart and put everything back together.  Resistance between the BLACK and WHITE wires are now reading 6.1 Ohms. Resistance between the rings read at 4.7 ohms. Is that within spec?

Yes, that is perfectly fine. I agree with both scottly and TwoTired; get rid of the "glazing" that is likely on the slip rings before you put it all back together.

[TicoCafe]

Did you find something wrong? 

Not really...The only thing I can think off that it was not intalled correctly or maybe a pinched cable but I did not see nothing suspicious.

Then record the voltages at 1000 RPM increments up to 5K.

Just to be clear for the Next Test...
-Is the RR plugged when I perform this test? I'm assuming yes.
-Which Black and Whire wires from the RR should I record the voltage from at 1k RPM increments? The big plug (white, black, yellow(3)) or the smaller plug (Green, White/Red, Black)??

[TicoCafe]

Check the length of the brushes for excessive wear: it was a common problem with the later charging systems.

Yes I did. And its a new system installed by the previous owner so the brushes checked out OK!

[TwoTired]

Then record the voltages at 1000 RPM increments up to 5K.

Just to be clear for the Next Test...
-Is the RR plugged when I perform this test? I'm assuming yes.
-Which Black and Whire wires from the RR should I record the voltage from at 1k RPM increments? The big plug (white, black, yellow(3)) or the smaller plug (Green, White/Red, Black)??

You will be checking the system (or regulator) while it is working configuration.  Yes, everything will be plugged in.  You may need extra jumpers to access some points of the system with probes.  Either that, or component substitution with known good, or continued guessing...

The plug that contains the yellows (Alternator output), also has the rotor or magnetic field coil wires.  The voltage on the field coil wires determines the output strength of the alternator.    Higher voltage on the B & W make the yellows put out more power.

If your battery is still not being charged, your regulator may not be passing voltage to the alternator.

It is a process of elimination.  You have checked the rectifier and found it good.  You have corrected the field coil connection to the regulator.
Now you need to know if the regulator is still performing.

Or you could check the yellow wire connections to the rectifier.  If you find the same high resistance indications that you had on the black and white wires, that can be cause for failure, too.

The regulator and wiring are the last major components of the charging system that you haven't "proven" with test devices.

Alternator rotor -- √
Alternator Stator -- √
Rectifier -- √
Connection from slip rings to regulator -- √
Regulator -- ?
Connection from stator to regulator -- ?
Connection from key switch to Regulator -- ?
Connection from Rectifier to Battery -- ?

Once you have checked all the system components and assembled them into a system, it must work as it did originally. 
Physics demands it.
No hand waving required. 

Cheers,

[TicoCafe]

Ok...I was ready to perform the test that TwoTired mentioned above and as soon I turned the ignition I blew the 30amp fuse. I proceeded to clean connect terminals next to the fuse which I think its the starter relay. I also unplugged the key ignition and cleaned the connectors in there as well. Since I had the headlight off, I cleaned the rest of the connector plugs inside the headlight bucket.  I added another new 30Amp and it blew again.   

Not sure why the 30amp is blowing up. Any insight is appreciated.

I was going to start looking for the short by Disconnect the battery.  Then measure between a suspected wire and the frame. If there is continuity then that is your culprit wire... I hope this makes sense. It does in my head...LOL!

[TicoCafe]

Trying to find this short and still not luck...   Blew 3 more fuses as soon as I turn the key to ON.

Question... With RR unplugged. The White and Black wire (Brush Leads) coming directly from the alternator are showing continuity to the black (-) battery pole... Is this normal??? Everything is pointing to NO!

The Manual says if ANY wire (3Yellows, Black or White) coming from the alternator/stator has continuity with Earth then there is an short circuit or open circuit.

Having the RR plugged in, I can get the short to stop when I disconnect the BIG plug (3 yellows, White and Black) from the system. Any guidance on what else to look is appreciated...! Everything is pointing that I have a BAD stator windings. Weird because its a brand new unit. How can it short?

[Bodi]

Measure resistance from the stator slip rings to the stator metal: this should be very high to "infinite". If you get that 4.7 ohms between the rings and no connection to the metal then the rotor is OK. Look for a problem with the brush holder or the wires to it. With the alternator plug (yellows and brush wires) disconnected you should have no connection - very high resistance reading in the Meg-ohms - to ground from any wire to the alternator.
Since you don't blow fuses with this plug disconnected I expect you will find an issue there. You may have just pinched a wire in the assembling of the brush holder? If this happened you may have "burnt out" the regulator part of your RR unit, but you have to correct whatever is blowing the fuses before going further.
You're still confused about the harness wire colours. Black is always positive "+" battery voltage, switched by the ignition key switch and fused by the "main" fuse. Green is negative "-" battery voltage: these wires connect to the frame, engine cases, and the battery "-" terminal.

[TicoCafe]

You will be checking the system (or regulator) while it is working configuration.  Yes, everything will be plugged in.  You may need extra jumpers to access some points of the system with probes.  Either that, or component substitution with known good, or continued guessing...

The plug that contains the yellows (Alternator output), also has the rotor or magnetic field coil wires.  The voltage on the field coil wires determines the output strength of the alternator.    Higher voltage on the B & W make the yellows put out more power.

If your battery is still not being charged, your regulator may not be passing voltage to the alternator.

It is a process of elimination.  You have checked the rectifier and found it good.  You have corrected the field coil connection to the regulator.
Now you need to know if the regulator is still performing.

Or you could check the yellow wire connections to the rectifier.  If you find the same high resistance indications that you had on the black and white wires, that can be cause for failure, too.

The regulator and wiring are the last major components of the charging system that you haven't "proven" with test devices.

Alternator rotor -- √
Alternator Stator -- √
Rectifier -- √
Connection from slip rings to regulator -- √
Regulator -- ?
Connection from stator to regulator -- ?
Connection from key switch to Regulator -- ?
Connection from Rectifier to Battery -- ?

Once you have checked all the system components and assembled them into a system, it must work as it did originally. 
Physics demands it.
No hand waving required. 

Cheers,

Found the SHORT... It was the wire connector at the base of the Brush Holder.  It was accidentally pinched when it was put back together. 
 
Below here is the Regulator Test as requested...

This Tests is at the Battery Terminals:
12.75v Bike OFF
12.50v @ Idle
14.36v @ 2K RPM
14.40v @ 3K RPM
14.40v @ 4K RPM
14.40v @ 5k RPM

This Test is from the Black and White Terminals at the RR:
12.2v @ Idle
11.3v @ 2K RPM
7.5v @ 3K RPM
6.4v @ 4K RPM
5.6v @ 5K RPM

How does the results look Two Tired???  I assuming it looks OK!!!


I did also find out the Bike is also running on 3 Cylinders only...The outermost left cylinder if you are sitting down.    That another project!

I cant thank you guys enough on helping me troubleshoot my issue. 

[TwoTired]

Looks like your charging system is working fine.  And your regulator is doing just what it needs to keep the battery from overcooking.

Feels good to fix it yourself, doesn't it?

Good luck on your next project!

Keep it up and you'll be in serious threat of having a bike that just needs riding and no work.

Cheers,

[gunner]

Hi everyone,

I know this post has been closed for quite some time, but I'm experiencing a very similar problem and am looking for some advice.  I performed all of the tests described here and my charging circuit is still not working.  I've started a new post (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=110322.0) and would greatly appreciate some help!

Thanks for all the valuable information in this thread.

Dylan