Author Topic: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited  (Read 20675 times)

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Offline SohRon

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze = disaster???
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2011, 06:55:19 am »
ok so im not going to pull out the ones with copper and clean them, but I see no reason I cant start using the silver stuff

You might want to reconsider that, considering the fact that copper is not the best thing to use here. See below for more info  ;)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 10:38:39 am by SohRon »
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Offline SohRon

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze = disaster???
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2011, 10:36:43 am »
Back to re-address the topic, this time with some solid information. While I've gotten some pretty varied opinions on this subject here, unfortunately no one with any real knowledge on the question has joined in with the discussion. With nothing forthcoming from this web site, I turned to my engineering contacts, Permatex, and Locktite for some real info.

The primary problems faced when using steel with aluminum (especially stainless steel) are galling and galvanic corrosion. Gallling is where a harder metal comes into frictional contact with a softer one (as in the case of SS and aluminum), which results in the softer metal smearing onto the harder stuff. To eliminate this, a lubricant is all that is required and, in fact, the old school bikers would use grease, oil, or even wax on their bolts in an attempt to alleviate this problem . The condition is especially prominent in areas of high temperature, where most lubricants simply break down and evaporate; and the different expansion rates between different materials in high temp conditions comes into play here, as well. All of these factors can cause things like steel spark plugs and exhaust studs to seize tight in an aluminum head, and their removal can result in damage to the threads they're screwed in to as the aluminum smeared onto the steel is distorted or even removed with the bolt.

To combat this, Loctite, Permatex and other anti-seize manufacturers have developed an anti-seize containing copper in suspension. Copper is well known for its excellent high temp properties; that's why it's used in in applications ranging from colliders and tokamaks to back-country stills to the bottoms of your (steel, not aluminum) cookware. It absorbs heat evenly and dissipates it just as well, all the while maintaining it's own molecular properties. In paste form, and under pressure, the particles bind together to create a lubricative barrier between adjoining metallic faces that remains soft without melting or otherwise dissipating. And its excellent electrical conductivity is especially important in areas like the sparkplugs, where a good path between the head and plug body is absolutely essential.

However, use of copper outside of high temp conditions can result in problems due to galvanic corrosion. An in-depth investigation of galvanic corrosion would take up more space than I'd care to expend, so I'll try to thumbnail the whole problem.



The Galvanic Series (abridged)

Galvanic Corrosion occurs when two dis-similar metals are in direct contact with each other and an electrolyte (water, acid, etc) is present. The electrolyte can begin pulling electrons off each material (oxidation), which sets up an electrical current between the two metals, creating a galvanic "cell" with the more stable ("noble", or more resistant to corrosion) metal acting as a cathode, and the more "active" (or more easily corroded) metal serving as the anode. This acts to strip electrons from the active material at a greater rate than would be normal in non-galvanic conditions; i.e. two similar metals in contact with a corrosive agent. If the two metals are far enough apart on the galvanic chart (based on the electrical potentials between the two, or "corrosion potentials"), the active metal will corrode at an exponentially greater rate than the more noble metal will; in fact, it can result in no corrosion of the noble material at all, while the active metal is consumed. And in conditions where the electrolyte contains a lot of free electrons, like near the ocean or in cities with a lot of CO2 and sulfide pollution, the condition can become a real problem. It has been the bane of ship builders since the dawn of copper-bottomed boats, and of mechanical engineers since the first time they tried to attach their fancy new iron axe blades to their old copper handles, and they've all been looking for solutions ever since.

To help eliminate this, engineers are encouraged, first of all, to avoid mixing dissimilar materials. Since this is pretty near impossible, their next form of defense is a good offense; or rather, it's more properly a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". They use the galvanic series to their advantage, and kind of trick mother nature with distraction by introducing a third metal into the mix; one that is even less noble than the first two. It acts as a "sacrificial anode" which is consumed by the electrolyte in deference to the other two more noble (but dissimilar) metals, slowing their corrosion (kind of like having a bear invade your picnic and tossing him the strawberry cobbler in order to save the pork roast and the green bean casserole). This is a pretty common practice; in fact, your hot water heater has a "sacrificial anode" made of either magnesium or aluminum that saves the steel tank from corrosion due to galvanic potentials between the tank and the minerals in the water.

Honda's engineers have addressed this by plating all of their steel fasteners, and a considerable number of other steel parts, with zinc. Zinc is right at the top of the galvanic chart, being less noble than either steel or aluminum, and cheerfully gives up its life for the greater good. The use of zinc, in fact, is an industry-wide practice, and you see it everywhere; plated, it has a nice, shiny metallic blue tone. Cadmium. with its distinctive mottled red/green/gold coloration, has been used for the same purposes; and though it's being phased out due to its high toxicity, it and zinc are commonly used world-wide as barriers against galvanic and other forms of  corrosion.

Another approach is to introduce the "sacrificial" material in the form of a corrosion-inhibiting paste, which is where anti-seize comes in. It works to stop corrosion in many different ways: by introducing a less noble metal into the galvanic mix; by forming a barrier that, at least temporarily, keeps water (electrolyte) from entering into the system (most are at least 50% grease, which acts to eliminate galling, as well); and by creating an anaerobic condition that inhibits oxidation. For most of our case bolts, where steel and aluminum come in contact, Locktite (and others) recommend an anti-seize containing (surprise, surprise) zinc . Its use reduces the corrosion potential between the more noble steel and the more active aluminum, and it's pretty much a requirement when stainless bolts are used instead of the standard zinc plated fasteners.

I know there are a few who swear by the copper-based anti-seize (some quite rabidly, actually) and use it for everything they can lay their hands on; not only that, they've been using the stuff for (insert number of years/decades/eons here) without a single problem. And that may be the way things appear to them. Copper and aluminum are pretty widely separated on the galvanic table, and in galvanic conditions aluminum always loses out to copper. That's why you don't mix copper and aluminum wiring in your house, for example. Honda uses copper on the bike primarily as crush washers (not including electrical switches), and in all cases except one, they are plated to prevent corrosion. The exception is the exhaust port crush rings, or exhaust packings. Four copper rings that fit between the head and the exhaust pipes, copper being utilized here because of its high-temp properties, as already discussed. These are protected by the high temp paint on the head, which eliminates one condition necessary for galvanic corrosion: direct metal to metal contact. In addition, the high temperature at this location (as at the plugs) and the angle of the head make it difficult for an electrolyte to form; and, as the washers are tightly formed into the port by crushing, it's fairly anaerobic in the contact point between the washers and the head. All this doesn't eliminate corrosion altogether; the next time you replace your pipes, check the contact perimeter on the face of the exhaust port and I can almost guarantee you'll find a faint circle etched into the aluminum that delineates the outside edge of the copper/aluminum contact patch.

The thing to keep in mind, here, is that all of this is based on events occurring at the molecular level while in real life things aren't so black and white. Metals alloyed, formed, forged and cast into widgets can react differently in structure than their molecular components would indicate, some becoming more noble in solid form (chromium is a good example), others less so, and the whole galvanic table kind of squishes together so that reactions aren't quite as extreme as you might expect them to be. Still, the strictures regarding dissimilar metals need to be heeded, so while using copper anti-seize along with your stainless steel case bolts won't necessarily cause the engine to crumble before your eyes, it isn't how Honda designed things, nor is it the best thing you could do for your bike in the long run; and since I want my bike to outlast me, I won't be using copper anywhere other than the spark plugs and exhaust bolts, which is where its use is recommended. If Permatex, Locktite and all the other anti-seize makers had wanted the copper stuff to be used as an ubiquitous cure-all, they wouldn't have gone to the effort and expense of formulating other versions, especially those aimed specifically at steel/aluminum interactions.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 10:57:47 am by SohRon »
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Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
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Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

Offline Rgconner

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2011, 05:02:20 pm »
Great info!

However,that bear is going to have to eat the damn the damn green beans, not the cobbler!
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Offline Rigid

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2011, 05:48:41 pm »
Copper gaskets for aircraft sparkplugs are selected for their sealing ability (annealed soft) and should not be used without graphite anti-seize compound. 
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Offline City Boy

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2011, 06:40:33 pm »
Thanks SohRon.I have been a longtime user and promoter to others of the value of copper based antiseize applied to just about every fastener on bikes and cars!Though I have always had satisfactory results,you have changed my mind with your in depth report here. Count me with the converted!   Rock On
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Offline Danno

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2011, 08:59:39 pm »
technically the copper question is correct it does eat aluminum but the oil or whatever susspension material in the copper antisieze helps it not chorode but that is why I use aluminum antisieze instead when I use stainless and have never taken out a white powdery bolt since I also suspect that what galvanic action can occur if using the copper the copper particles may act like a sacraficiall anode to the process because of the susspension fluid
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Offline crazypj

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2011, 11:49:58 pm »
You can dissolve stainless steel in molten aluminium   ;D
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Offline CBDee

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2011, 03:19:56 pm »
Ron, you allways make it seem so simple. What agreat explaination, given with insite and humor, Thanks!

PS and I'm with the guy who would toss the Green bean cassarole. Not one of my favorites!
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Offline SohRon

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2011, 04:54:04 pm »
Copper gaskets for aircraft sparkplugs are selected for their sealing ability (annealed soft) and should not be used without graphite anti-seize compound

In fact, most spark plugs utilize a copper sealing gasket (or crush washer), some plated, some not. Graphite (or carbon) is as noble as you can get; on the above chart it would be listed at the very bottom below gold and platinum. Most copper based anti-seize contains graphite as well as copper in suspension. Again, we're talking about high-temp applications here.

I have been a longtime user and promoter to others of the value of copper based antiseize...  you have changed my mind with your in depth report here. Count me with the converted!

Right on!


technically the copper question is correct it does eat aluminum but the oil or whatever susspension material in the copper antisieze helps it not chorode but that is why I use aluminum antisieze instead when I use stainless and have never taken out a white powdery bolt since I also suspect that what galvanic action can occur if using the copper the copper particles may act like a sacraficiall anode to the process because of the susspension fluid

Yes on the aluminum anti-seize; while it's not quite as good as the zinc, it is also recommended for use in this application. Can't agree on the rest, though.

You can dissolve stainless steel in molten aluminium 

Wow (?)

...that bear is going to have to eat the damn the damn green beans, not the cobbler!
...I'm with the guy who would toss the Green bean cassarole. Not one of my favorites!


I hear you!! However, the bear (and electrolyte) will go for the tastiest stuff first, which is, after all, the plan.

Thanks for getting involved, guys!
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 05:01:53 pm by SohRon »
"He slipped back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl..."

Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

Offline Kickstart

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2013, 09:45:54 pm »
I probably shouldn't be staying up so late on the SOHC4 forums... I start doing crazy things like re-opening really old discussions :)

In my defense, SohRon sent me here (posted a link to this thread in another discussion)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131573.0
I was going to respond in the newer discussion, but that one is more about different types of fasteners and I didn't want to go too far off topic.

Also, I think this is a great thread and probably deserves to be brought back into current discussions... here it goes:

Until I read this very convincing thread (Thank you SohRon), I was previously led to believe the copper stuff was better, based on another thread I found...

I think this is the post that originally convinced me to use the copper stuff:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=81763.0
Which referenced this: http://inoxbolt.co.uk/zen/index.php?main_page=page&id=2#anti_seize

With the argument being "sandwiching" a third metal that's in the middle of the metal nobility table prevents the galvanic corrosion process.
Not that I understand that argument.  It seems to me it would just be a case of having two simultaneous galvanic corrosion processes going on at the same time - Maybe two wrongs make a right here :)

But then, I still don't understand how the aluminum based anti-seize works (which is what most consumer places sell) - unless the aluminum powder in the anti-seize is slightly less noble than the aluminum engine case?  Also, reading the TDs of the "aluminum" Permatex stuff, I see that it also contains copper... so what gives here?
http://www.permatex.com/resources/tds?view=tds&format=raw&filename=81343.pdf&market=automotive

Well... the MSDS doesn't state any copper... so who knows.... ?!
http://www.permatex.com/resources/msds?view=msds&format=raw&filename=81343.pdf&language=01_USA-English

Based on SohRon's research, zinc anti-seize would be the best choice. 
However, I think there's more to this story... why do the common aluminum (which may contain copper?) and copper anti-seize products seem to work so well? - at least based on anecdotal evidence.

Is anyone out there using the zinc anti-seize? - it looks like it's available via mail-order.
 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 09:53:57 pm by Kickstart »
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Offline trueblue

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2013, 12:38:02 am »
I normally use nickle anti sieze on alumnium especially if it is going to be in contact with salt water.  In the past I have used copper with no ill effect, but I prefer the warm fuzzy feeling of using the nickle knowing it is less likely to cause any issues in the worst case scenario.  ;D
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Offline tlbranth

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2013, 08:40:33 pm »
Inox (http://www.inoxbolt.co.uk/zen/) manufactures and sells stainless steel fasteners for motorcycles. Here's what they have to say about antisieze:



Why is it really that important to use copper anti seize and not something else?

When stainless steel is fastened ‘dry’ into Aluminium, galvanic corrosion can occur as the result of two different materials at opposite ends of the ‘metal nobility’ table being interfaced. In practical terms this means that alloy crankcases can oxidise around the fastener area very quickly. Copper based anti seize provides a third metal as the ‘sandwich’ and, as copper is placed in the centre of the ‘metal nobility’ table, it prevents Galvanic corrosion. Ordinary grease or oil will not work as they do not contain the vital element. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES use Aluminium grease of any sort - including aerosols - as it will probably seriously damage the castings.

Since they're in the business, I go by their recommendation. I got a lifetime supply of copper antisieze from NAPA a while back for about $15 and I use it on every stainless faster that goes on the bike.

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Offline dave500

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2013, 11:44:58 pm »
any blind hole also should be blown out and probed to get any old crud out,maybe even spray carb cleaner/contact cleaner before using any anti sieze compound?

Offline City Boy

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2013, 06:14:48 am »
Well tlbranth,I am now suitably confused and contemplating mixing all my antiseize in one container in hopes of covering all possibilities tee hee !!
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Offline Muckinfuss

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2013, 08:17:08 am »
Mr. Tlbranth has hit upon a very critical issue regarding the interpretation of the 'nobility' scale of metals.  The further two metals are from one another on the scale, the more likely, and severe the result of a corrosive interaction.  You can make this as complex as you like by measuring galvanic gaps against mil-spec allowances etc. but for the purpose of a motorcycle engine that is 5 days old or 50 years old, the further the metals are from each other on the scale....the more likely a problem with dis-assembly in the future.  We used copper in the '60's on Triumph's and BSA's.....exclusively.  Granted, stainless or aluminum fasteners didn't exist then for us....but corrosion between bare steel screws/bolts and aluminum did.  To Dave's point, the fastener as well as the hole should be as 'dry' as possible before using anti-seize.  When most petroleum products age..they turn to goo.  Heat causes accelerated aging....distillation.  Age a little more and they will turn to a varnish that is as good as super glue.  I can't imagine using oil on threads for anti-seize.  You will create the very thing you're trying to avoid.
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Offline minimo

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2015, 08:49:06 pm »
Thank you for this valuable info.

After some online ninja work, I have settled on the purchase of some ZINC ANTI-SEIZE that is a fraction of what Loctite charges for their primo version that comes in only 1 LB size.

2 OZ is probably more than what I'd need to coat on my CB550F engine case bolts.
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Offline Garage_guy_chris

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2015, 09:15:53 pm »
My dad is a boater, and stainless and aluminum get used together a lot in marine applications. Now on a boat its exposed to salt water, salt air, and humidity all the time. Recently my dad led me onto a product i have never heard mentioned on here. Maybe this is a alternative worth exploring???

http://www.forespar.com/products/boat-lubricant-lanocote.shtml

Quote
LanoCote is a non-toxic lanolin based grease. It will keep dissimilar metal parts from reacting galvanically. A little bit goes a long way as a protective film is present even if not visible. While environmentally friendly if you get it on your clothes it can be hard to wash out. Clean up with Acetone.
How does LanoCote® work?

LanoCote® works on these five basic principals: displaces water, absorbs corrosion, forms moisture barrier, penetrates and has high lubricity. LanoCote® prevents dissimilar metal galvanization. LanoCote® is extremely effective in preventing and stopping corrosion on all types of metals under all environmental conditions. Formulated to withstand salt water marine conditions, LanoCote® is particularly useful in preventing thread seizure due to all types of corrosion on boats and machinery. Applied during assembly, LanoCote® will greatly assist in easy dismantling years later. An example would be anchor shackles which are regularly immersed in salt water. LanoCote® also combats galvanization where dissimilar metals are fastened together, such as stainless steel fittings on alloy masts etc.

Apply LanoCote® on turnbuckle and shackle threads to prevent galling.

Apply LanoCote® on your plumbing system valves to keep them operating smoothly.




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Offline minimo

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SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2015, 09:22:27 pm »
Interesting. However, looking at the tech sheet, Lanocote barely makes the max temp range with a flash point of 408-degrees F; Honda engines, specifically at the "flowering" points of the header, can reach hotter temperatures.

Offline PeWe

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2015, 09:44:36 pm »
OK, I used copper paste on my 8mm exhaust bolts, Allen head bolts instead of studs for my 4-1. Bolts are normal zinc or nickel plated.
I should have used aluminum past I have in a tube?

Corroded aluminum has happened to the head when sitting for 19 years in a  barn. Combustion chamber and piston crown pitted, valves rusted. Especially on one cylinder with a bent ex valve that did not close completely.
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: SS + Aluminum + copper based anti-sieze revisited
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2015, 08:12:07 pm »
+1 on what Minimo said.  Lanocote is just lanolin, which probably works fine at temperatures under 100 degrees.  I suspect any oil, grease, or wax would work just as well... until you went through a couple of heat cycles and burn/melt/vaporize it off.

+1 on zinc.  I bought the expensive 1lb can of loctite zinc anti seize.  Good tip on the cheaper stuff Minimo.  I didn't see your post before I bought mine, but then again I have a lot of projects sitting in my garage so maybe it's a good thing I have a pound of it.

My friend works for the navy, as a coating engineer, with access to the guys who deal with metal to metal corrosion.  He told me the guys use the zinc anti-seize for their SS/aluminum connections.  Said they tried this other stuff called Tefgel, but didn't like the results.... that's all the information I was able to get.  But I figure if the navy is using the zinc stuff in a salt water environment, then it's probably the best stuff to be using

PeWe... I think you're fine with the copper stuff.  In fact, anyone storing their bike indoors is probably fine using any of the metal based anti-seize products (whether it be aluminum, copper, or zinc).  Unless the bike is stored outside, or near the ocean, or you drive though salt water on a regular basis, I don't think there's really much of a problem.  You need water for the corrosion to take place... so most corroded bolt problem we usually encounter on these bikes are because of neglect (as you said... "sitting for 19 years in a  barn").
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