Author Topic: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic  (Read 4295 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

orange550

  • Guest
Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« on: September 02, 2011, 06:10:47 PM »
Not trying to start an oil war here, but I have a few questions...

I changed the oil in a recently purchased 74 cb550. Engine runs decent, but has 27k miles. I pondered which oil to use, and I thought even though the Amsoil is bloody expensive, I'd give the engine every little help possible. I think, oddly, the engine is a bit noisier now. (I used 2 quarts of 10w - 40, and 1 quart of 20w-50.)

My pops, who is an old BMW and Hondamatic, guy, swears by 20w-50 for old noisy engines (he uses non-syn). Another old timer I know, swears by straight 40 for "those japanese bikes" no matter the time of year. (also non-syn)

Maybe go back to non-syn?

Thoughts?

Thanks!



« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 06:38:43 AM by orange550 »

Offline grasscutter

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 243
  • Love the CB650.
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2011, 06:30:30 PM »
Definite oil war started.  Do a 'search'.  Lots of opinions.

Won't weigh in on what I use...

..but it does strike me as odd, that folks use cheap oil.  Whether its your $1K SOHC or your $40K new truck, why not get the best?  Do your research.  Find one of the top tier oils and use it.  Why use oil from a your local gas station?  Really?!  I mean.. come on... oil alone is the life blood!  What do new corvettes, porsches, or other sports cars factory fill their engines with?  Then ask yourself, why?  Why would they use that oil in their engine.

They don't use the crap, because they are pretty confident the new owner is going to go 'hammer' on the throttle a few times, so probably best to fill with a quality oil right from the get-go.

Then go do other research and find out which oils fail fastest due to thermal breakdown.  SOHC bikes are air cooled and run hot, so wouldn't you want to do some leg-work and find an oil that is the best @ with-standing high temps? 

** Ok.. mini-rant is done.
Come on!  We're burning daylight!

orange550

  • Guest
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2011, 06:34:13 PM »
I did a lot of searching, but there was lots of emotion mixed in with the discussions. I was looking for some specific past experiences. Especially on high mileage engines.

Thanks.

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,802
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2011, 07:03:44 PM »
There is no engineering data from the oil manufacturers.
Controlled, comparative tests, are nearly non-existent, mostly because oil manufacturers do NOT want an educated buyer, and will aggressively attack any independent tester that may besmirch their brand name.   They want a loyal consumer who makes purchases based on emotion, or "faith" in a brand. 
The best advise I can give you, is to follow what the bike manufacturer recommends.  Unless you know that the internal bearing clearances have been worn excessively, the oil viscosity recommendation by the manufacturer is still valid.  The lower ends on these bikes are quite stout.  Unless it's had an oil dilution, or contamination problem, 27K miles is a mere pittance, wear wise.

These bikes do NOT normally run hot, unless you are asking for max HP all the time and not giving the engine air flow over it.  Normally, the engine is over-cooled, as there is no regulation and there are more fins on the engine for the event when is does create more heat (high power settings).  For insurance, I like synthetic blend, as synthetics have a higher temp withstand. So, if you do cook the oil, it still gives some lubrication.
I have not had any complaints about Honda's HP4 in 10-40 (without moly).  You do NOT want modern auto oil that has any labeling about "Energy Conserving" or one dedicated for use in engines with catalytic converters.

On a side note, engine "noisyness" could well be a perception error.  I certainly noticed smoother/silkier shifting with Honda oil, as well a semi synthetics from Spectro.  I took that as a pretty good sign it was working well.  Indeed, draggy shifting, I've learned is a pretty good indicator about when the oil needs replacing, as well as it's visual appearance and smell.
Anyway "Noisy" is subjective, and isn't really linked with performance or longevity issues. imo.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline lone*X

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,124
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2011, 07:13:18 PM »
First thought is that a 27K miles engine is not necessarily a high mile engine.  Lots have gone 3 or 4 time that.  Depends on how it was maintained.  Only comment I will make on oil is do not use any oil that contains friction modifiers, ie energy conserving additives.  Bad for the wet clutch.
Lone*X  ( Don )

75 CB550K1  
VTX1800C for two up cruisin.
Several others have come and gone but whose keeping track.
52 years on two wheels and counting.....
"The best safety feature of any motorcycle is the one God put between your ears.  It's also the least utilized"

Offline Rgconner

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 674
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2011, 09:35:28 PM »
Delron fromwalmart or other supplier.

Service interval is 1500, so Amsoil would be very expensive. Plus all the anti slip additives

My local Amsoil supplier who rides a 70's kawasaki does not use it either, he uses Delron too.

We both use it in our Piaggio scooters however, you need all you can get there with a one quart sump, even on the 250s.
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,188
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2011, 09:59:22 PM »
castrol rx super diesel 15/40,$99 for twenty litre drum goes in my petrol car aswell.

Offline Lil Red

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 98
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2011, 10:17:04 PM »
For what it's worth in every one of these threads, in EVERY forum I've ever been involved with...There will always be an engineer or really tech saavy guy tell you that going to synthetic oil in an old bike or car that's never seen it, will do no harm. Yet I've seen it happen. stuff starts leaking, something happens to seals, these are not ALL made up stories. I got my bike and put some Motul 20/50 non syn in it, I may try the diesel oils etc, but wont ever go to a full synthetic, unless I completely rebuild it for some reason.

Totally unscientific...but my 2 cents none the less.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 10:21:58 PM by Lil Red »

KingCustomCycles.com

  • Guest
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2011, 01:22:04 AM »
Full synthetics will run thinner, lower viscosity, but still provide adequate lubrication as compared to petroleum base stock oils.  That feature reduces the "cushion" available between internal parts and can result in leaks, as well as more noise.  No harm done usually.  Full synthetics also won't "varnish" internal engine parts as readily which is not an especially good thing as the varnish prevents rust when the engine is innactive.  I am with the old school here, I use straight 15W40 Rotella, or Honda Golden Spectro on my SOHC.  The Harley gets Lucas full synthetic because that is what a local Harley engine shop recommends for my engine and many have recommended Amsoil. 

Offline xsmooth69x

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,621
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2011, 02:01:59 AM »
castrol rx super diesel 15/40,$99 for twenty litre drum goes in my petrol car aswell.

please explain this?

can i throw this in my subaru also?
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

black and white equation godzilla chalkboard 
1972 cb750 - next in line for some <3

Offline grasscutter

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 243
  • Love the CB650.
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2011, 01:42:32 PM »
<<These bikes do NOT normally run hot, unless you are asking for max HP all the time and not giving the engine air flow over it.  Normally, the engine is over-cooled, as there is no regulation and there are more fins on the engine for the event when is does create more heat (high power settings). ...synthetics have a higher temp withstand. So, if you do cook the oil, it still gives some lubrication. 

You do NOT want modern auto oil that has any labeling about "Energy Conserving" or one dedicated for use in engines with catalytic converters.>>

True!  Should not have used the term HOT just to describe an air cooled engine.  & Yes, auto oil = bad for motorcycle's with wet clutch, which the SOHC/4's have.

<<<There will always be an engineer or really tech saavy guy tell you that going to synthetic oil in an old bike or car that's never seen it, will do no harm. Yet I've seen it happen. stuff starts leaking, something happens to seals, these are not ALL made up stories.>>>

I've heard these stories as well.  Never understood why the blame is on the oil?!  All synthetics (no matter what brand) are high detergent oils.  Basically meaning they keep the engine clean.  No wax / paraffin fillers.  So when seals start leaking after switching to your favorite synthetic, its the high detergent synthetic oil that is getting rid of all the varnish, crap, sludge in the engine.  So likely the seals, even though they've been bad for a long time, weren't leaking because the owner is using a cheap oil that helps seal those old seals.  (Which is what high mileage oils are engineered to do).

<<<Full synthetics will run thinner, lower viscosity, but still provide adequate lubrication as compared to petroleum base stock oils.  That feature reduces the "cushion" available between internal parts and can result in leaks, as well as more noise.  No harm done usually.  Full synthetics also won't "varnish" internal engine parts as readily which is not an especially good thing as the varnish prevents rust when the engine is innactive.>>>

Viscosity is viscosity.  It is not determined by the engine brand.  10w30 is 10w30.  SAE 50 is SAE 50.  Approved by API. (which is a stamp on all bottles of oil, showing it has been independently tested and meets specific API standards for viscosity)  Synthetics flow very well even when very cold, so sometimes folks will say they oil is thinner.  That's not the case.

"Varnish".  Not sure of the value of varnish.  Can't see rust getting in a normal operating engine.  (not counting bikes left outside with no air filters, water getting in mufflers, etc.).  I'd like my engine to be spotless.  When rebuilding an engine, one of the things we do is polish the crank.  Kind of don't want varnish anywhere.  Which of course leads back to quality of oil.  Bottom tier oils leave varnish (due to having high content of paraffin).  Top tier oils leave engine bearings, etc. clean, and the dirt, varnish, crud- in the filter where it can be removed.

It is interesting that all Oil Brands have a synthetic in their line-up.  Castrol, valvoline, Amsoil, Mobile1, etc., even NAPA has their own synthetic (made by valvoline).  And, all oil brands that I've seen @ my local Motorcycle Shop, also have a synthetic motorcycle oil.  Pick your favorite brand.
Come on!  We're burning daylight!

KingCustomCycles.com

  • Guest
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2011, 02:58:19 PM »
That is a lengthy opinion.  Thats all, lengthy, and an opinion.

Offline grumpy

  • HUH?!?! ME!?!? I'm not a freakin
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,358
  • ..... '73 750K3 .....
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2011, 03:07:47 PM »
I wouldn't use super heavy oils - especially straight 40 !
I don't think the motor will pump anything that thick until it get near operating temp.

Here's an interesting read regarding oil...

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles



Offline grasscutter

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 243
  • Love the CB650.
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2011, 04:37:45 PM »
That is a lengthy opinion.  Thats all, lengthy, and an opinion.

Did not take my response lightly, knowing that opinions on the 'oil threads' are many!  Please advise where the opinion is.
Come on!  We're burning daylight!

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,188
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2011, 06:34:10 PM »
castrol rx super diesel 15/40,$99 for twenty litre drum goes in my petrol car aswell.

please explain this?

can i throw this in my subaru also?

i cant comment on your subaru xsmooth.

Offline xsmooth69x

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,621
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2011, 10:20:51 AM »
castrol rx super diesel 15/40,$99 for twenty litre drum goes in my petrol car aswell.

please explain this?

can i throw this in my subaru also?

i cant comment on your subaru xsmooth.

then if not my subaru these bikes can use that oil? im always down for alternatives  :)
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

black and white equation godzilla chalkboard 
1972 cb750 - next in line for some <3

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,188
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2011, 12:48:13 PM »
yes.

Offline Tanqueracer

  • "You can't step into Victory Lane with your foot on the Brake"
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 68
  • www.yanquetanque.com
    • Yanque Tanque racing
Re: Amsoil / Straight 40 / 20 -50 / or non-synthetic
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2011, 01:13:40 PM »
You were looking for a real world experience so for what it's worth here's what I use.
Amsoil 20W-50, part number ARO-QT. I use this formula in all my engines from 409ci, 500hp units down to my Honda Cb750F. This is the "old school" formula with the high zinc/phosphorus content for use with flat tappet cams etc. I have had no problems with this formula of oil in my 750. It is wet clutch compatible. I prefer the heavier weight. They also make a 10W-40 if you would prefer that weight. I'm not sure about mixing different weights of oils together. I've never done that and am not sure what mixing the two together would accomplish.

In my street driven vehicles I use the Amsoil 0W-30. This formula is made for the roller tappet cam style engines. I use the extended drain intervals advertised by Amsoil. My once a year oil changes have netted me over 230K miles on both my trucks (one diesel and one gas powered) and has saved me hundreds of $$ over the years.

The 0W-30 has less zinc and phophorus and will ruin a flat tappet motor. Trust me. I know from real world experience how quickly the wrong oil will ruin an engine. I would never put any oil from any manufacturer that has a 0, 5, or 10 for a starting number in any flat tappet/cam motor without a zinc supplement or unless the bottle said expressely for flat tappet cams. The cam lobes will go round in short order.

I got into an argument on this forum before as there are many people who have oil opinions and it seems to make certain members of this forum angry when people bring up oil questions. I think that's ridiculus, as anyone should be able to ask anything without fear of being abused here verbally, but that's for another discussion.

And I'll leave you with this gem. Any race car you see on TV in Nascar or Indy Car has Mobile 1 15w-50 in it, no matter the sponsor. ALL of them. It's that good. Let see if that don't start the crazies screamin'!!!  8)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 02:48:24 PM by Tanqueracer »
"The older I get the faster I was"!